I'd say it's cutting the course. They should stay on the road. It'd be better if the race would put a cone on the corner, make it obvious where the corner is
I'd say it's cutting the course. They should stay on the road. It'd be better if the race would put a cone on the corner, make it obvious where the corner is
I ran part of a 1/2 marathon on sidewalks once because my shoes were slipping on the blacktop road. I never thought about cutting until this thread. I finished 5th overall in 1:13. I wonder if the other guys thought I was cutting.
It's probably cutting the course (but come on, after you factor in their non-perfectly linear corner shaving over the rest of the course, they're still probably running more than the race's distance). If they beat you by more than 1.3 seconds, it doesn't matter unless they were going for a record time.
Also, I've seen at least one course where a turn was required to be done "on the sidewalk" because the RD didn't have clearance to be on the major road they needed to complete the course loop. However, the certified course measurement included this requirement. So, if you want the technically correct answer to your question in the particular race in question, look up the course certification map.
I'll also pose a follow-up question: I believe the standard measurement is done a certain (small) distance from the curb anyway. By way of example, if they measure it 10 cm from the curb and I'm inside that with my foot, am I cheating? If not, what's the difference between that and your example?
I would ask if the time the cheater saved was significant? If it was, then yes, say something, and hopefully have a runner or two that was around you, support what you say. In 1996 I had the same thing happen in an evening race in CT. We were running in Hartford, and a right turn was coming up. A guy about 20 yards in front of me, suddenly turned right, ran across the small peninsula and on to the road heading downhill towards the finish. He probably cut off about 100 yards. I closed on him at the finish, and he beat me by about 2 steps. He pumped his fist and yelled stuff, high-fiving people and saying he had a "PR". Before I could say anything , three other runners that also witnessed what he did, went up to him and shoved him. They began yelling, telling him they saw what he did, and so on. This guy stood there and said "It's not cutting, since both roads are part of the course.." One of the angry runners told the director, who shrugged his shoulders and asked the guys time. The guy ran about 15:35, and was clearly out of the top 10. So, the director, didn't want to be bothered with it. So, that was the end of that. But, forever, that guy had people pointing at him at every race thereafter, whispering and shaking their heads. He kind of faded away. So OP, I think this cheater will be exposed one way or another. People are not stupid. They know. Your cheater will have to live with himself and possibly be humiliated one day by some person who brings it up at a social function or at a post race party.
Tristate wrote:
I would ask if the time the cheater saved was significant? If it was, then yes, say something, and hopefully have a runner or two that was around you, support what you say. In 1996 I had the same thing happen in an evening race in CT. We were running in Hartford, and a right turn was coming up. A guy about 20 yards in front of me, suddenly turned right, ran across the small peninsula and on to the road heading downhill towards the finish. He probably cut off about 100 yards. I closed on him at the finish, and he beat me by about 2 steps. He pumped his fist and yelled stuff, high-fiving people and saying he had a "PR". Before I could say anything , three other runners that also witnessed what he did, went up to him and shoved him. They began yelling, telling him they saw what he did, and so on. This guy stood there and said "It's not cutting, since both roads are part of the course.." One of the angry runners told the director, who shrugged his shoulders and asked the guys time. The guy ran about 15:35, and was clearly out of the top 10. So, the director, didn't want to be bothered with it. So, that was the end of that. But, forever, that guy had people pointing at him at every race thereafter, whispering and shaking their heads. He kind of faded away. So OP, I think this cheater will be exposed one way or another. People are not stupid. They know. Your cheater will have to live with himself and possibly be humiliated one day by some person who brings it up at a social function or at a post race party.
LOL. Best made up story ever.
You forgot the part where everyone but the person broke out in applause after the confrontation.
It all depends on how the course was measured.
I have certified courses before to USATF standards , and you are required to take and measure the shortest possible route a runner could take when measuring the route. When certifying courses, I would think like a runner trying to gain any advantage, and would measure the course accordingly. This may involve measuring off the road and on sidewalks, dirt, gravel or other surfaces.
This may include going up on the sidewalk to measure 90 degree corners. If runners must stay on the road in a corner such as this, the sidewalk must be closed off with traffic barriers or intensive coning by the race director. Instructions for this would be included as part of the course certification details and map.
If it is known that the event director cannot enforce a restriction to stay on the road and off the sidewalk, the course is to be measured taking the shortest possible route around permanent obstacles on the inside of a 90 degree corner (around obstacles such as fences, buildings, walls, thick vegetation, etc.)
If this was a certified course, and the corner was not supposed to be barricaded or intensively coned, the runner did not cheat by running on the sidewalk.
You can find details and maps of USATF certified courses online at
It's not cheating
not inless it is specified in race rules pre race.
if someone is going to spend the energy to jump a curb and or spend five times as much energy as the average person to make the most efficient tangent then more power to them what they don't realize and what you should realize is it usually is not cost effective as far as the extra energy spent and the destruction of the race Rhythm to do those things but if it makes them feel better that's fine what's more ofconcern is the marked race distance is the truest route and if you apply your energy to that rout you have your greatest opportunity to run your best let the competition do what they are going to do
this and this wrote:
It all depends on how the course was measured.
I have certified courses before to USATF standards , and you are required to take and measure the shortest possible route a runner could take when measuring the route. When certifying courses, I would think like a runner trying to gain any advantage, and would measure the course accordingly. This may involve measuring off the road and on sidewalks, dirt, gravel or other surfaces.
This may include going up on the sidewalk to measure 90 degree corners. If runners must stay on the road in a corner such as this, the sidewalk must be closed off with traffic barriers or intensive coning by the race director. Instructions for this would be included as part of the course certification details and map.
If it is known that the event director cannot enforce a restriction to stay on the road and off the sidewalk, the course is to be measured taking the shortest possible route around permanent obstacles on the inside of a 90 degree corner (around obstacles such as fences, buildings, walls, thick vegetation, etc.)
If this was a certified course, and the corner was not supposed to be barricaded or intensively coned, the runner did not cheat by running on the sidewalk.
You can find details and maps of USATF certified courses online at
http://www.usatf.org/events/courses/search/
Just a follow-up: I checked the course certification map and emailed the race director. We are in agreement that the course was measured on the road, not up on the sidewalk. Again, this had nothing to do with the particular runner who cut the corner. All the other 19 runners in front of me used the road. He just happened to be the latest person who has tons of race experience who I have seen cut corners. All the experienced and higher-level runners I know are aware that you should stay on the road UNLESS the course is clearly marked to do otherwise.
The race director said that cones and/or tape will be placed here and on other corners, or a marshall will be there in the future.
The bigger question is: is it cheating?
1. Is it cheating if a guy cuts a marathon course to get a BQ?
2. Is it cheating if numerous runners cut thru some median woods to the parallel road to cut the marathon course?
3. Is it cheating if a certain PA runner did what he did?
4 Is it cheating if a pro runner takes PED's?
5. Is it cheating if during a ultra trail race a guy knowingly misses a few stations and claims a faster time?
I have only blatantly seen that once ....At a very competitive 5k in West Virginia. The crazy thing about it, is that many of those same runners were at a the Subaru 4 mile Chase in Buffalo,NY a few weeks earlier and the race director explicitly directed runners to stay on the road at all times and anyone cutting corners on side walks would be DQ'd. Apparently the race director of the 5K didn't care, as the course makes a short loop past the start. Many runners were cutting the corners over side walks right in front of him. These were not hobby joggers, BTW, the winning time was 13:50.
Personally, I just don't think it is safe. Plus it is ridiculous to do that to gain an advantage.
iNOthisMuch wrote:
It's done in all races in Kenya and Ethiopia - not a big deal - who cares?
Stop it. Those countries barely have roads never mind sidewalks.
What you're learning is that hobby joggers cheat a lot.
They cut corners, they wear headphones, they take illegal aid, they have their relatives give them illegal aid, they'll happily help carry someone else.
Cheating is just culturally acceptable to most hobby joggers.
Do we really care?
Hfgghhgjb wrote:
Tristate wrote:
I would ask if the time the cheater saved was significant? If it was, then yes, say something, and hopefully have a runner or two that was around you, support what you say. In 1996 I had the same thing happen in an evening race in CT. We were running in Hartford, and a right turn was coming up. A guy about 20 yards in front of me, suddenly turned right, ran across the small peninsula and on to the road heading downhill towards the finish. He probably cut off about 100 yards. I closed on him at the finish, and he beat me by about 2 steps. He pumped his fist and yelled stuff, high-fiving people and saying he had a "PR". Before I could say anything , three other runners that also witnessed what he did, went up to him and shoved him. They began yelling, telling him they saw what he did, and so on. This guy stood there and said "It's not cutting, since both roads are part of the course.." One of the angry runners told the director, who shrugged his shoulders and asked the guys time. The guy ran about 15:35, and was clearly out of the top 10. So, the director, didn't want to be bothered with it. So, that was the end of that. But, forever, that guy had people pointing at him at every race thereafter, whispering and shaking their heads. He kind of faded away. So OP, I think this cheater will be exposed one way or another. People are not stupid. They know. Your cheater will have to live with himself and possibly be humiliated one day by some person who brings it up at a social function or at a post race party.
LOL. Best made up story ever.
You forgot the part where everyone but the person broke out in applause after the confrontation.
Sharing an experience bothers you? I feel sorry for you.
Not technically allowed, but if it's not elite runners, it doesn't really matter. If a 23:00 5k runner has an official PR of 22:50 because they cut a couple corners, big whoop. If you care that deeply about it, you can document it and call them out but that's kind of a dick move. Or you could just relax and focus on yourself. If they have to cheat to feel good about themselves, that's not your problem.
OP still hasn't revealed the time. I assume that you are in the neighborhood with 22-23 minutes. Cutting corners on a course may be against the race rules but it isn't illegal. I wonder if the OP drove 56 MPH in a 55 zone on the way to the race. That is illegal but he wouldn't be happy if he received a ticket for it.
I've done it in the case where there was a car parked right before the 90 degree corner, so really you had to swing wide or go on the inside.
but then again, just 17min from me that day, no 13:50s
Agree, esp if the course is congested with runners or other obstacles.
Or if the roads aren't closed off to traffic (expecting either light traffic or runners to be in a bike lane).
this and this wrote:
It all depends on how the course was measured.
I have certified courses before to USATF standards , and you are required to take and measure the shortest possible route a runner could take when measuring the route. When certifying courses, I would think like a runner trying to gain any advantage, and would measure the course accordingly. This may involve measuring off the road and on sidewalks, dirt, gravel or other surfaces.
This may include going up on the sidewalk to measure 90 degree corners. If runners must stay on the road in a corner such as this, the sidewalk must be closed off with traffic barriers or intensive coning by the race director. Instructions for this would be included as part of the course certification details and map.
If it is known that the event director cannot enforce a restriction to stay on the road and off the sidewalk, the course is to be measured taking the shortest possible route around permanent obstacles on the inside of a 90 degree corner (around obstacles such as fences, buildings, walls, thick vegetation, etc.)
If this was a certified course, and the corner was not supposed to be barricaded or intensively coned, the runner did not cheat by running on the sidewalk.
You can find details and maps of USATF certified courses online at
http://www.usatf.org/events/courses/search/
This is the first I'm hearing about, absent cones on a corner, the course is measured assuming the runners run on the sidewalk. That sounds wrong to me, but I am not a course measurer.
On a similar note, I ran a marathon last year on roads with multiple small roundabouts. If we were going straight, I would just go straight over the roundabout paving, while most stuck to the road. It didn't save me much time but I ended up breaking 3hrs by only 10seconds so may have helped.
Now in retrospect maybe I was cutting? At the time I was just trying to take the shortest route ( I am amazed how many people stay on one side of a two lane winding road rather than running tangents)
MidPack45 wrote:
On a similar note, I ran a marathon last year on roads with multiple small roundabouts. If we were going straight, I would just go straight over the roundabout paving, while most stuck to the road. It didn't save me much time but I ended up breaking 3hrs by only 10seconds so may have helped.
Now in retrospect maybe I was cutting? At the time I was just trying to take the shortest route ( I am amazed how many people stay on one side of a two lane winding road rather than running tangents)
Yeah, the roundabout question is interesting. I assume you're supposed to follow the road, but i am also not taking the time here to research the relevant guidelines. Where's Katz when you need him?!
Here's an example.
Everyone else runs wide and has to lean hard through the turn......not this guy!