Bekele vs Jim Ryun in a mile

For those of us who are of Ryun's generation, who actually saw him race, who actually spoke with him, who actually were on the infield with him, the idea that he was on amphetamines is as far off the mark as one can imagine. There were some guys--I'm thinking of a few quarter milers--who surely appeared to be amped-up, but Ryun, not a chance.

So you guys think that the very first person to break 4 is the best person in the mile ever? That is pretty much what these posts are insinuating. No I am not saying Bekele is the best miler ever but he has had some very good results against Lagat and EL G. I think he could take it. Every sport gets better with time. The top runners in the world over the last 10-20 years weigh far less than Ryun for a reason.

Tactical race with fast last lap-Ryun

WR type race with evenly paced laps-Bekele

At altitude-Bekele

Without EPO-Ryun

westsouthrunner wrote:

So you guys think that the very first person to break 4 is the best person in the mile ever? That is pretty much what these posts are insinuating. No I am not saying Bekele is the best miler ever but he has had some very good results against Lagat and EL G. I think he could take it. Every sport gets better with time. The top runners in the world over the last 10-20 years weigh far less than Ryun for a reason.

Ryun was a 3.51 miler at aged 19 on dirt tracks and without pacing or competition. That's quite a bit better than "the first guy who broke four minutes". Bekele is also nowhere near being "the best miler ever". That's why the outcome would be interesting. Weight is a red herring.

The 1967 Jim Ryun beats all comers from all eras in the mile/1500. He destroyed Kip Keino in two match races that year, plus won in Germany against Harold Norpoth and Bodo Tummler with a 50 second last lap.

I even think he beats '77 Ovett and El G (who was likely an EPO runner).

Ryun had intense focus, talent and fitness coming together that year.

Big Red wrote:

The 1967 Jim Ryun beats all comers from all eras in the mile/1500. He destroyed Kip Keino in two match races that year, plus won in Germany against Harold Norpoth and Bodo Tummler with a 50 second last lap.

I even think he beats '77 Ovett and El G (who was likely an EPO runner).

Ryun had intense focus, talent and fitness coming together that year.

I don't know if 1967 beats any 1500/miler ever, but he certainly beats Bekele. Bekele would win anything 3k or above, maybe 2k.

BTW, if not for mono & altitude, we would have seen a much different Ryun in 1968. He was never the same psychologically after the mono.

If it's 3:50 or faster pace, Bekele, especially if he makes a move before the last lap. Anything slower, Ryun outkicks him -- 36 second last 300 in Dusseldorf, 50 second last lap conservatively estimated, 53 last lap in his second mile world record.

m!ndweak wrote:

Deanouk wrote:

Where do you get 7 or 8 seconds advantage for EPO from?

I seriously doubt it would be that for 1500m, maybe 5000m!

The accounts I’ve read on these boards and other articles I’ve read, and I’m not claiming I know these to be 100% accurate, suggests about 3 secs for the top elite.

Where you been doggy? Ramzi dropped 9 seconds, kiprop slowed down 7-8 seconds on Monaco

We have been over this it’s ~4% improvement, thus it’s like this

800 : 2-3 sec

1500 : 7-8

3000: 15

5k : 25-30

10k : 60

Marathon : 4-5 minutes

So your scientific research and somewhat precise conclusions are based on evidence from a pool of 2 athletes!?

We don't know exactly when either started doping, and with Ramzi, we have no idea what percentage of his 9 sec improvement was down to normal maturation, changes in training or EPO. I believe that there have been dozens of clean athletes who have run in the 3:29 - 3:34 area. To accept that not one of them then decided to try EPO is unlikely. As such, why did we not see someone then running 3:21 - 3:26, if EPO gives an 8 sec improvement?

Lagat also dusted Bekele in a 12:59 with a 51 last lap.

Ryun closed a race in 2:46. There is no way that Bekele would gap him by running a fast, consistent 1500m or mile. Aside from 7,000 feet in Mexico City, coming off of mono, where he let a huge gap form and was not the best man on the day in those conditions in that health, a fast, consistent pace was something he almost never got, and would have used to smash the world record even in the conditions of the 2:46 race, all the more on modern mondo.

He ran 21.5 220 in the sprint medley in hs and split 46.9 440y on a relay, according to his son, after a 3:55, as a freshman in college, and I think that was the day in which it was so muddy that they had grain elevator belts down for the jumps.

46.9y in mud equates to sub 46 open on mondo and on tired legs probably low 45 or high 44.

drewr

RE: Jim Ryun's High School PR's (440 & 2-mile) 1/4/2006 12:30PM - in reply to Wyco Loco

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I don't know a 440 time from high school, but Timmons did stick him in a sprint medley one time his senior year and he split 21.5 for his 220 leg. And as a freshman at KU he split 46.9 on the freshman 4x4 at the KU Relays after a 3:55 mile.

zxzxcv wrote:

Ryun closed a race in 2:46. There is no way that Bekele would gap him by running a fast, consistent 1500m or mile. Aside from 7,000 feet in Mexico City, coming off of mono, where he let a huge gap form and was not the best man on the day in those conditions in that health, a fast, consistent pace was something he almost never got, and would have used to smash the world record even in the conditions of the 2:46 race, all the more on modern mondo.

No other 1500m runner lead Ryun through 1000m sub-2:20. There is nothing Ryun did during his career to give one the belief he could handle sub-2:20 1000m. I am certain if Bekele in his prime trained to be a 1500m/5000m runner, Bekele, I am certain would be the 15th sub-3:29 1500m man. Because Ryun, in his peak outkicked Kip Keino at sea level in a one mile run is not proof Ryun could have beaten Bekele in a fast 1500m race.

zxcvzxcv wrote:

He ran 21.5 220 in the sprint medley in hs and split 46.9 440y on a relay, according to his son, after a 3:55, as a freshman in college, and I think that was the day in which it was so muddy that they had grain elevator belts down for the jumps.

46.9y in mud equates to sub 46 open on mondo and on tired legs probably mid-45.

drewr

RE: Jim Ryun's High School PR's (440 & 2-mile) 1/4/2006 12:30PM - in reply to Wyco Loco

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I don't know a 440 time from high school, but Timmons did stick him in a sprint medley one time his senior year and he split 21.5 for his 220 leg. And as a freshman at KU he split 46.9 on the freshman 4x4 at the KU Relays after a 3:55 mile.

Since this thread is analyzing a potential 1500m race between Ryun and Bekele, Ryun's 220yd. and 440yd. speed are not highly important. Ryun's speed is only a small factor because Bekele would have know to win the the race over the first 1200m.

SDSU Aztec wrote:

I don't know his PR in the mile, but Bekele certainly could have run faster than 3:51. It comes down to much faster you think Ryun could have run on an all-weather track and with a more even pace. I also believe that Ryun overtrained. IMO, Ryun was as talented as Coe and Overt.

Bekele off his epo probably about 3 56...so Ryun wins big.

m!ndweak wrote:

Kenenisa Bekele wrote:

Who wins?

who wins!?!?!?

duuuur its obviously jim ryun! everyone knows he had PRs of

43'9

1'38.5

3'24

if he ran 3'24 that gives him a 3'40 mile! boooom long live vent!!!!

Just corrected it slightly.

Is this a joke???

Modern tracks, modern conditions - no EPO's - I give the nod to Ryun over Bekele because he was the more natural middle-distance man. With speed-endurance, extra speed counts. The more interesting question is whether peak Ryun could have taken peak Coe. Height aside, both were remarkably similar runners. I am picking Coe would have done to Ryun what he did to Ovett at Moscow.

zxcvzxcv wrote:

He ... split 46.9 440y on a relay, according to his son, after a 3:55, as a freshman in college, and I think that was the day in which it was so muddy that they had grain elevator belts down for the jumps.....

the infamous quagmire.

Please respect pioneers of construction, business, politics, and athletics.

You had to be tough just to live in the 1930s, 40s, 50s, 60s, and to some extent even the 70s.

There were many tough milers who could have beaten the greats of today.

Unfortunately you cannot go back in time and change eras can you?

What really gets to me is the disrespect all the yung dudes have for the people who set

things up for them in their lives. Somebody had to do it first...that applies to everything.

Live and learn, learn and live.

In a fair world Paavo Nurmi might have beaten Bekele.

westsouthrunner wrote:

So you guys think that the very first person to break 4 is the best person in the mile ever? That is pretty much what these posts are insinuating. No I am not saying Bekele is the best miler ever but he has had some very good results against Lagat and EL G. I think he could take it. Every sport gets better with time. The top runners in the world over the last 10-20 years weigh far less than Ryun for a reason.

Put Todd Gurley of the LA Rams back in the 1960s when Jim Brown was running over, around, and through people

and do you think the girly man would come out on top? Get real. Brown was stronger, bigger, and almost

as fast in HIS era!!!

Herb Elliott and Peter Snell may have destroyed today's 1500 runners if that run could have been

performed in the 1960s with what they knew at that time. Elliott and Snell may have been tougher too.

No one knows for sure.