If Lagat breaks Scott's American record should it be marked with an asterisk?

BA wrote:

When you got a bunch of guys running 3:36 and getting their ass kicked by 10 seconds in GP meets, changing their goals isn't gonna drop the time.

yeah it is. complacent has been the word to describe american miling of late. they seem to not even care that they get their butts kicked in GP meets (if they even bother to race in europe) as long as they run just well enough to get a spot on the team. lunn, stember, et al were the poster boys for this. race in america, get a provisional spot on the team, and then hope to get hoovered to an A in some podunk meet in europe. can't do that anymore with guys like webb, lagat, krum running. hell, i'll add myers to that list. no shelter anymore. and that's a great thing.

Kay Scarpetta wrote:

I think Lagat ran a 3:43 alongside El G in Rome when El G broke the WR. Peak cycling at its best. You can view the race itself on Michael Bautista's homoerotic website tribute to El G.

nope, that was noah ngeny. lagat's pr is 3:47.

Well -- I don't think it's a TERRIBLE analogy, just not a particularly sharp one. We know the "WORLD Series" wasn't that for many, many years, and still isn't -- it's a North American contest... until ML Baseball's winner plays teams from Asia and Latin America... We've observed the prejudices that Aaron faced when he took down Babe Ruth's record... We also know that this country is full of people who weren't born here, and who haven't lived here for long. I am simply saying that their aspirations and achievements shouldn't be *ASTERISKED.*

I welcome him here also. I merely find it ironic that many of the pc'ers here who see European settlers as second class citzens because they weren't here first, somehow find the energy to defend Lagat as the embodiment of the Statue of Liberty.

T&F records do not rise to the level of Constitutionally protected territory. Sorry.

There are many on this thread who can't understand my argument. Let me lay it out for you.

IT'S NOT ABOUT RACE, IT'S ABOUT COUNTRY.

IT'S NOT ABOUT RACE, IT'S ABOUT COUNTRY.

IT'S NOT ABOUT RACE, IT'S ABOUT COUNTRY.

IT'S NOT ABOUT RACE, IT'S ABOUT COUNTRY.

IT'S NOT ABOUT RACE, IT'S ABOUT COUNTRY.

IT'S NOT ABOUT RACE, IT'S ABOUT COUNTRY.

IT'S NOT ABOUT RACE, IT'S ABOUT COUNTRY.

more?

By the way, I voted for Kerry and I'm a hardcore liberal. Go analyze that one. I jsut have pride in Steve Scott and runners who have actually came up through the American system setting records.

BS. Of course you have to take an incremental approach but too many make being an American Record holder as their main goal, or of being the US champ as their main goal.

As we have seen, if you can run 3:38 you have a shot at being the US champ at 1500m (1992-2002) but it won't even get you into most GP meets.

Make being the best your main goal and then set-up intermediate goals along the way.

I doubt John Walker's main goal was to be New Zealand record holder for the mile. Or that Viren was hoping to be competitive at the Olympics.

The best aim to be the best and don't spend their time worrying about classifying their competitors by nationality, etc.

Far too often I have heard runners say with pride that they were the first American finisher in a race. But they placed 12th. I'd alot rather have them pissed off at finishing 12th and planning how they were were going to get to first. Having pride in being the first American finisher makes no more sence then being proud at being the first bald finisher or the first finisher with size 9 feet, its just an irrelavent classification.

"I merely find it ironic that many of the pc'ers here who see European settlers as second class citzens because they weren't here first, somehow find the energy to defend Lagat as the embodiment of the Statue of Liberty."

WOW! Where do you get that idea, how do you leap to that assumption? My point (am I one of the "pc'ers," to borrow your term) is that you're exactly not a second-class citizen, or shouldn't be, once you acquire citizenship. Everyone ought to be a first-class citizen in this country, although it's not always happening in practice these days...

"T&F records do not rise to the level of Constitutionally protected territory. Sorry."

Didn't Scalia just say that, or one of those strict constructionists? (Kidding...) If the Constitution doesn't reflect on something called "track and field," than it doesn't enjoy constitutional protection and oversight?

In point of fact, it would be very interesting to see what would happen in court, if, say, Lagat set an AR and was denied certification because of his recent acquisition of citizenship. My thought is that the Courts, even today's Supreme Court, would very likely rule in Lagat's favor.

Then why won't you say what race you are?

BA wrote >>>

Well your beloved American system is falling further and further behind in terms of record and that is how it will be judged, by results.

Like in the golabl market place, what works best and is within the rules will be what is used. Be it an American System, Kenyan system or individual system.

starmiler wrote:

In point of fact, it would be very interesting to see what would happen in court, if, say, Lagat set an AR and was denied certification because of his recent acquisition of citizenship. My thought is that the Courts, even today's Supreme Court, would very likely rule in Lagat's favor.

of course they would. national origin is a suspect class, it would be state action, and this surely wouldn't pass muster.

"(am I one of the "pc'ers," to borrow your term)"

I wasn't referring to you as I know from your posts elsewhere that you don't fit the profile. We just have an honest disagreement.

As for the SCOTUS, I think they'd take a 10th Amendment approach and leave it up to Track's governing body to do what they saw fit, thus it wouldn't receive certiorari.

and whoever said T & F records don't rise to constitutionally protected territory is dead wrong. if you discriminate against someone because of where they were born - whether that is a T & F record or denying them a state funded education - it violates the 14th or 5th. this isn't even hazy ground.

BA wrote:

I jsut have pride in Steve Scott and runners who have actually came up through the American system setting records.

How fast was Lagat when he came over to attend WSU? How many years has he been in the US?

By your logic, someone who has lived in the US for 10 years and been a citizen for 10 months should not be allowed a national record, but another citizen who has lived in the US for 10 months in the last 10 years would be. Just what is that national record representing then?

??? wrote:

"(am I one of the "pc'ers," to borrow your term)"

I wasn't referring to you as I know from your posts elsewhere that you don't fit the profile. We just have an honest disagreement.

As for the SCOTUS, I think they'd take a 10th Amendment approach and leave it up to Track's governing body to do what they saw fit, thus it wouldn't receive certiorari.

head back to law school, chief. usatf is a federally chartered organization. 10th doesn't even come close to applying.

but you're right, it wouldn't get cert because summary judgement in favor of lagat would happen at the district court as there is absolutely no novel question of law here.

chuck d wrote:

and whoever said T & F records don't rise to constitutionally protected territory is dead wrong. if you discriminate against someone because of where they were born - whether that is a T & F record or denying them a state funded education - it violates the 14th or 5th. this isn't even hazy ground.

Wanna bet?

Augusta National discriminates against women. I discriminate against homely looking gals. That's why I married a beauty queen. Discrimination, per se, is an every day, Constitutionally protected activity in our nominally free USA.

are you kidding? i'd bet this year's salary on that - after doing a tad bit of research on westlaw, of course. ;)

please tell me how you'd get around it. i don't do much work in the 14th/5th area of equal protection so i'm very interested in this and am always open to getting my mind expanded.

BA wrote:

I jsut have pride in Steve Scott and runners who have actually came up through the American system setting records.

This may get to the heart of it. In this guy's mind, the US system apparently sucks at developing distance runners, so it's perceived as an advantage to not have to deal with it.

Better to mark records when a white christian person is setting it.

It will be a lot of marking otherwise.