El Keniano wrote:
Kenya just lost a medal souce wrote:
Looks like Kenya just lost a medal provider in the women's 800m. Might have to send women for women's events in future.
Ever heard of Eunice Sum?
What happened to Sum?
El Keniano wrote:
Kenya just lost a medal souce wrote:
Looks like Kenya just lost a medal provider in the women's 800m. Might have to send women for women's events in future.
Ever heard of Eunice Sum?
What happened to Sum?
Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:
El Keniano wrote:
Ever heard of Eunice Sum?
What happened to Sum?
She got tired of being bashed around by stinky sweaty dudes.
So are all women in these events going to be tested and have to meet these guidelines?
I still don't see anyone beating Semenya. It took a doped up Savinova to beat Semenya last time she was forced to take hormone therapy
And I explained this in the other thread. They have analyzed elite womens T levels. The levels intersex must cut down to is far above that level. iirc, the 99th percentile among elite females was 3nmol/L and the previous cutoff for intersex on T reduction was 10nmol/L. IOW, they can still have 3x what the highest females have. These rules presumably apply to regular women too. They check T levels I'm sure during doping controls.
Stoppit Smith wrote:
I posted this in another thread but so what, it needs to be said:
This is fine and acceptable as long as they are able to figure out the exact amount of testosterone the elite-level female athlete has who is not androgenous.
Then, they would have to titrate the substances in carefully in order to maintain that level.
Any less than that and they are cheating Semenya.
If no titration or monitoring policies are in place, then they should not rule in favor of this until they have an "A" standard for the testosterone levels of most female athletes. In other words, they would have to delve into major statistical analysis to be correct--it's not that simple.
Scientifically speaking, they would have to get a mean, median and, probably, more importantly, a mode for the female athlete. The mean will tell them what the trend is overall. The median will determine a direct midpoint for the levels, and the mode will let them know what most of the female athletes are doing. You would then need a control group of non-athletic females to see what their levels are.
Why?
You would need to test both of them in a workout situation to find out the maximum (or near maximum) they could reach in a situation that amplifies their testosterone levels (since they can switch situationally). You would then need to find the standard deviation because you would have to know the full extent of the ranges of possibility.
Only then could you create a baseline by which all female athletes (androgenous or true XX) should be at in order to state what is proper for an athlete like Caster Semenya.
Sadly enough, unless all of these are in place and the full opinions and adjudication are conducted in a fully clinical manner without bias, any ruling seems premature since the scope of androgenous levels may not be completely evaluated and understood.
tl;dr version: No, this is not good as it's not a fair rendering.
Mike
Joplas wrote:
I still don't see anyone beating Semenya. It took a doped up Savinova to beat Semenya last time she was forced to take hormone therapy
She may dominate the event for a year or two, but not much longer than that.
2014 2:02.66 Roma (ITA) 05 JUN 2014
2013 1:58.92 Rieti (ITA) 08 SEP 2013
2012 1:57.23 London (GBR) 11 AUG 2012
2011 1:56.35 Daegu (KOR) 04 SEP 2011
kjz;sdfj;lksfjlxvkz wrote:
And I explained this in the other thread.
They have analyzed elite womens T levels.
The levels intersex must cut down to is far above that level.
iirc, the 99th percentile among elite females was 3nmol/L and the previous cutoff for intersex on T reduction was 10nmol/L. IOW, they can still have 3x what the highest females have.
These rules presumably apply to regular women too. They check T levels I'm sure during doping controls.
Stoppit Smith wrote:
I posted this in another thread but so what, it needs to be said:
This is fine and acceptable as long as they are able to figure out the exact amount of testosterone the elite-level female athlete has who is not androgenous.
Then, they would have to titrate the substances in carefully in order to maintain that level.
Any less than that and they are cheating Semenya.
If no titration or monitoring policies are in place, then they should not rule in favor of this until they have an "A" standard for the testosterone levels of most female athletes. In other words, they would have to delve into major statistical analysis to be correct--it's not that simple.
Scientifically speaking, they would have to get a mean, median and, probably, more importantly, a mode for the female athlete. The mean will tell them what the trend is overall. The median will determine a direct midpoint for the levels, and the mode will let them know what most of the female athletes are doing. You would then need a control group of non-athletic females to see what their levels are.
Why?
You would need to test both of them in a workout situation to find out the maximum (or near maximum) they could reach in a situation that amplifies their testosterone levels (since they can switch situationally). You would then need to find the standard deviation because you would have to know the full extent of the ranges of possibility.
Only then could you create a baseline by which all female athletes (androgenous or true XX) should be at in order to state what is proper for an athlete like Caster Semenya.
Sadly enough, unless all of these are in place and the full opinions and adjudication are conducted in a fully clinical manner without bias, any ruling seems premature since the scope of androgenous levels may not be completely evaluated and understood.
tl;dr version: No, this is not good as it's not a fair rendering.
Mike
So they will be allowed 3x the testosterone level of normal women in addition to having the advantage of a lifetime of physical/mental development as hormonally male?....if Caster can't still beat the top women with these advantages, it will show just how poor an athlete s/he is compared to top XX women.
Caster will struggle to break 2 minutes under those regulations.
Riding the T-Train wrote:
kjz;sdfj;lksfjlxvkz wrote:
And I explained this in the other thread.
They have analyzed elite womens T levels.
The levels intersex must cut down to is far above that level.
iirc, the 99th percentile among elite females was 3nmol/L and the previous cutoff for intersex on T reduction was 10nmol/L. IOW, they can still have 3x what the highest females have.
These rules presumably apply to regular women too. They check T levels I'm sure during doping controls.
So they will be allowed 3x the testosterone level of normal women in addition to having the advantage of a lifetime of physical/mental development as hormonally male?....if Caster can't still beat the top women with these advantages, it will show just how poor an athlete s/he is compared to top XX women.
No, they will be "allowed" approximately 1.66x the testosterone level of women at the 99th percentile, going from 3 nmol/l up to 5 nmol/l.
One would imagine Semenya feels horribly depressed when her testosterone levels are suddenly slashed to about 1/3 of her normal genetic value. That depression could be a real reason why she runs slower.
Riding the T-Train wrote:
kjz;sdfj;lksfjlxvkz wrote:
And I explained this in the other thread.
They have analyzed elite womens T levels.
The levels intersex must cut down to is far above that level.
iirc, the 99th percentile among elite females was 3nmol/L and the previous cutoff for intersex on T reduction was 10nmol/L. IOW, they can still have 3x what the highest females have.
These rules presumably apply to regular women too. They check T levels I'm sure during doping controls.
So they will be allowed 3x the testosterone level of normal women in addition to having the advantage of a lifetime of physical/mental development as hormonally male?....if Caster can't still beat the top women with these advantages, it will show just how poor an athlete s/he is compared to top XX women.
Well no, cos we have no idea what T levels Bishop, Sharpe, Wilson, Sum et al have. In fact no-one wants to even discuss that, other than the typical LR teenage male response of 'they look hot/definitely a woman' BS.