EL G, and it is not even close. He had an 800m kick, which is why bekele and kipchoge would go out fast, and often work together to try to run his legs out.
EL G, and it is not even close. He had an 800m kick, which is why bekele and kipchoge would go out fast, and often work together to try to run his legs out.
Apophis99 wrote:
round and round wrote:
if winning Gold medals is the criteria for best kick (i'd say it's the goal of all elite runners!) then I agree it is Farah by a mile.
i think many on here think it's the ferocity or speed/pace of the kick though.
there are generally two camps on Letsrun for these types of questions (who is the GOAT etc) [1] How many gold medals did they win (Farah GOAT) [2] what were their times (Bekele GOAT)
for some reason, most prioritize times over medals, which is kind of not the point of competition
discus
If medal count is going to be the overriding criteria for judging career success can the strength of the field be disregarded outright? Can the overall time be disregarded, too? These GOAT discussions are usually a composite of several factors.
How much greater is, say, Bekele’s 12:57 Olympic Record in 2008, where Kipchoge clocked 13:02 for silver, than Mo Farah’s 13:41 in 2012? (NCAA’s was won in 13:40 that year btw.) They’re not equal unless the sole factor of winning the race is considered, and doing so is hardly appropriate.
Several people have been able to close as fast as Mo Farah off of faster paces over better competition.
but no one has been able to win as much as Farah doing it that way. which makes him the best kicker (lets disregard the GOAT discussion for this thread)
you're basically saying that a gold medal at 13:41 is less valuable than a gold medal at 12:57. that's kinda dumb. gold is gold. you can't compare jesse owens to usain bolt because it's impossible to know, so the hypothetical needs to just stop. the jim ryun "what if" stuff is so unproductive. it doesn't get anywhere and never will.
Centrowitz had the fastest last lap of an olympic 1500m ever and only ran 3:50, but beat some of the best 1500m runners of all time.
how do you interpret that scenario?
Kicking to win gold medals in the olympics or world championships is more important than kicking in a fast split or kicking to get a fast time. that's just my opinion though, as I've always raced to win or place high. (usually times come along with that)
round and round wrote:
Apophis99 wrote:
If medal count is going to be the overriding criteria for judging career success can the strength of the field be disregarded outright? Can the overall time be disregarded, too? These GOAT discussions are usually a composite of several factors.
How much greater is, say, Bekele’s 12:57 Olympic Record in 2008, where Kipchoge clocked 13:02 for silver, than Mo Farah’s 13:41 in 2012? (NCAA’s was won in 13:40 that year btw.) They’re not equal unless the sole factor of winning the race is considered, and doing so is hardly appropriate.
Several people have been able to close as fast as Mo Farah off of faster paces over better competition.
but no one has been able to win as much as Farah doing it that way. which makes him the best kicker (lets disregard the GOAT discussion for this thread)
you're basically saying that a gold medal at 13:41 is less valuable than a gold medal at 12:57. that's kinda dumb. gold is gold. you can't compare jesse owens to usain bolt because it's impossible to know, so the hypothetical needs to just stop. the jim ryun "what if" stuff is so unproductive. it doesn't get anywhere and never will.
Centrowitz had the fastest last lap of an olympic 1500m ever and only ran 3:50, but beat some of the best 1500m runners of all time.
how do you interpret that scenario?
Kicking to win gold medals in the olympics or world championships is more important than kicking in a fast split or kicking to get a fast time. that's just my opinion though, as I've always raced to win or place high. (usually times come along with that)
you cant compare bolt to owens because they are different eras. Bekele and farah: same era. Farah only started winning when the greats like El G, Bekele, kipchoge, geb were off the track and doing thons / retired. Throw any of those names I mentioned into a final with farah and have them jog the first 10 or so laps, and they will beat farah by many meters. Have you seen the 2009 world champs 10k? consistent 62 second laps until Bekele drops the hammer. Farah? he does consistent 65-70 second jogging and then runs like a 53 or so. Farah can't kick off of fast paces, that's why he slows the race down. AFAIK, 2009 wc 10,000m was like a 26:40 or something and Bekele still had an amazing kick
Fermin Cacho for the 1500 m. Sub 50 closing speed.
epicTCK wrote:
round and round wrote:
but no one has been able to win as much as Farah doing it that way. which makes him the best kicker (lets disregard the GOAT discussion for this thread)
you're basically saying that a gold medal at 13:41 is less valuable than a gold medal at 12:57. that's kinda dumb. gold is gold. you can't compare jesse owens to usain bolt because it's impossible to know, so the hypothetical needs to just stop. the jim ryun "what if" stuff is so unproductive. it doesn't get anywhere and never will.
Centrowitz had the fastest last lap of an olympic 1500m ever and only ran 3:50, but beat some of the best 1500m runners of all time.
how do you interpret that scenario?
Kicking to win gold medals in the olympics or world championships is more important than kicking in a fast split or kicking to get a fast time. that's just my opinion though, as I've always raced to win or place high. (usually times come along with that)
you cant compare bolt to owens because they are different eras. Bekele and farah: same era. Farah only started winning when the greats like El G, Bekele, kipchoge, geb were off the track and doing thons / retired. Throw any of those names I mentioned into a final with farah and have them jog the first 10 or so laps, and they will beat farah by many meters. Have you seen the 2009 world champs 10k? consistent 62 second laps until Bekele drops the hammer. Farah? he does consistent 65-70 second jogging and then runs like a 53 or so. Farah can't kick off of fast paces, that's why he slows the race down. AFAIK, 2009 wc 10,000m was like a 26:40 or something and Bekele still had an amazing kick
if they weren't on the track at the same time competing how can you say they are same era?!
you're being hypothetical again...and too binary
remember, i'm definitely not saying Farah is a better runner than El G or Bekele or Kipchoge, but you can only measure people by how they raced during their career. I don't even like Farah, but his style of racing to win by kicking is more dominant than almost any other distance runner. Farah has won 18 gold medals in championships since 2010. 4 of 4 in Olympics and 6 of 8 (other 2 were silver) in WC's
he's a great kicker, not a faster runner or someone who would have beaten Bekele etc if put head to head. that's a different discussion. you don't have to concede the other guys are better runners to acknowledge Farah has built his entire career on being a kicker in championship races.
Tom Brady is the best winner in the history of the NFL, but he's not necessarily the best quarterback. It's a percentage, a statistic, a fact.
Farah has more olympic gold medals than Bekele, El G, or Geb. Fact.
again, i'm being objective here, because i like the other guys way more than Farah. i think he's an a-hole. whatever, they are likely all dopers anyway
Bob Schul ran down Michel Jazy on a muddy cinder track in Tokyo. Without a doubt on an all-weather track he would be under 50 for the last 400m. In his prime nobody could out kick Bob.
I like Moroccan Runners wrote:
Rashid Ramzi! ?
https://youtu.be/0HcGVbDLhI8
Too juiced to lose!
Kev2 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiqPRpKVY5E
close, but not sub 50 last lap for him.
Here’s just one comparison Bekele had a better a kick, Bekele in ‘08 10k 53.4 last lap cruised last 75-80m, winning time 27:01 last K in 2:27
Mo in 2012 ran 27:30 with a 2:28 last K and 53.8 last lap
We happen to have a Mo 27:01 race as well in 2015, his last lap was 54.15 off a 2:29 last K
Bekele could close faster than Mo off a faster pace = better kick
Dave Wottle
The number of medals won by kicking is the only way to figure out who has the best kick? Wtf are you talking about. Also, it's not hypothetical since Mo was in the 2009 Wch 5000m and wasn't even close to medalling though that was probably before he was completely drugged up tbf.
+1
Moby wrote:
Ryun was a monstrous kicker, as was Geb. Those two come to mind first.
But Abdi Bile closing the 1987 WC 1500 in 1:46.0 has to put him in contention
That's a fast 800m not a kick as such
epicTCK wrote:
round and round wrote:
but no one has been able to win as much as Farah doing it that way. which makes him the best kicker (lets disregard the GOAT discussion for this thread)
you're basically saying that a gold medal at 13:41 is less valuable than a gold medal at 12:57. that's kinda dumb. gold is gold. you can't compare jesse owens to usain bolt because it's impossible to know, so the hypothetical needs to just stop. the jim ryun "what if" stuff is so unproductive. it doesn't get anywhere and never will.
Centrowitz had the fastest last lap of an olympic 1500m ever and only ran 3:50, but beat some of the best 1500m runners of all time.
how do you interpret that scenario?
Kicking to win gold medals in the olympics or world championships is more important than kicking in a fast split or kicking to get a fast time. that's just my opinion though, as I've always raced to win or place high. (usually times come along with that)
you cant compare bolt to owens because they are different eras. Bekele and farah: same era. Farah only started winning when the greats like El G, Bekele, kipchoge, geb were off the track and doing thons / retired. Throw any of those names I mentioned into a final with farah and have them jog the first 10 or so laps, and they will beat farah by many meters. Have you seen the 2009 world champs 10k? consistent 62 second laps until Bekele drops the hammer. Farah? he does consistent 65-70 second jogging and then runs like a 53 or so. Farah can't kick off of fast paces, that's why he slows the race down. AFAIK, 2009 wc 10,000m was like a 26:40 or something and Bekele still had an amazing kick
So you include years when Bekele beat Farah and ignore when the roles were reversed?
Bekele has a better kick over 200m Farah would at least come close in a longer kick
By the way Farah era came after Geb and Bekele as they are older than him. Geb significantly so and you can add 4 years to Bekele age hence he's fecked now! Your era definition is illogical just because the gap is 5 or do years not 50. Stop talking crap and stick to the ops question
Uhm, No. wrote:
Like really bro wrote:
Mo Farah and it’s not even close. If your thinking it’s someone else then you are looking at the past through rose-tinted glasses.
He made a 7 year career out of it and was the most dominant winner in Olympic/World championship history for distance running. Always the kick to win, every race. Nothing comes close.
You can't compare mid d kicks vs distance kick.
Mo surely is among or the top 5k and 10 k kickers ever.
However, he wouldn't stand a chance at mile/1500 and especially 800. That's a different beast and no way is he even in the conversation for those events. He'd lose by 10s of meters to Ryun, Coe, and Rudisha.
There's a handful of NCAA 800 guys right now that would clean his clock in the 800. Mo never was close to top 400 speed to compare with the mid day guys.
His blazing fast sub 3:30 was not because his kick but his strength. He knows that even mediocre speed like Centro is better than his
I agree with comments plus I hate how on here they are all lumped together as distance
To me Ovett was a real kicker as he'd leave it to the last 200,m or even later.
Yifter was similar in long distances plus outkivked Ovett! But horses for courses Over would have studied him over kick in 1500m
El G could never do that as was shown when he got beaten in Olympics before making sure he had a pacer next time.
Coe beat Ovett supposedly on a kick the reality was the last 700m was just an 800m race.
Coe did kick off that at the end though and was also lethal
Snell in winning Olympic 1500m also classic kick.
Samuel DeChamplain wrote:
round and round wrote:
if winning Gold medals is the criteria for best kick (i'd say it's the goal of all elite runners!) then I agree it is Farah by a mile.
i think many on here think it's the ferocity or speed/pace of the kick though.
there are generally two camps on Letsrun for these types of questions (who is the GOAT etc) [1] How many gold medals did they win (Farah GOAT) [2] what were their times (Bekele GOAT)
for some reason, most prioritize times over medals, which is kind of not the point of competition
discus
Bekele has way more global medals especially gold than anyone else with times to boot, no discussion on him and mo never will be
this however is about kick, someone can be the goat kicker and be 2nd or 3rd a lot ala Lagat(does have some wins too)
I just feel like Bekele had the most dominate kick ever, look at how many races he put away by 200m to go in just 150-200m, and also his ability to do it from the front and off fast paces
El G literally kicked his arse though!
Stoppit Smith wrote:
I just watched the Withrow footage
I actually have to agree that this is one of the best kicks ever.
Now, for the longest sustained kick? Michael Stember
tbh wrote:
to be honest, the best kick I have ever seen was Matt Withrow outkicking galen rupp at the 2003 footlocker national championships. his kick was absolutely insane
Withrow is the toughest SOB to ever come out of Illinois. His kick to win Footlocker is epic, as this kick to win the Illinois 1600M title in 2004.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Prs_h5n9rt4Farah