What does lactate threshold feel like?

oregon oldtimer wrote:

I ran 69 min for a 1/2 and this was definitely at a pace above my LT, which was ~5:30 pace. Marathon pace is generally just slightly faster than LT pace. One has to remember that the pace at LT doesn't result in any net increase in lactate. It is the intensity above the LT wherein lactate becomes an issue.

The thing I find interesting in the discussion of the LT is that a lot of individuals give the impression that that this is an "absolute" concept and that the LT is easy to measure and determine. I just do a LT test, take the data, and then go put it to use. Nothing can be further from the truth. What criteria are you using to determine the LT? 2mM rise from baseline, 4 mM, breakpoint...??? 10 scientists will give you 10 different answers.

Unless you are one of the Galen Rupps or Eliud Kipchoges of the world, just go run! Too many people are splitting-hairs over whether their LT is 5:16 or 5:21 pace and then discussing this while eating a bowl of chocolate-frosted-sugar-bombs. Until you are doing most EVERYTHING else right, there is no need to be concerned with whether or not the LT is 5:16 or 5:21 pace.

H.I.T. Reader wrote:

therealjbird17 wrote:

Good podcast by Steve Magness and Jonathan Marcus on threshold training

http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2018/02/episode-68-threshold-training-good-or-bad-and-what-in-the-world-is-it.html

Interesting. I listened to the podcast and even in their discussion, threshold is still this abstract thing. This is what I like about Healthy Intelligent Training. The Lactate or Anaerobic Threshold is defined clearly. I wish I could post a graphic from the book, but to sum up the graphic:

1. As running speed increases, heart rate rises proportionally to a certain point

2. This point is called the Deflection Point

3. The speed run at the deflection point is called Threshold Speed

4. The heart rate at the deflection point is called the Threshold Heart Rate

5. The heart rate levels off after this point till it reaches maximum

6. Any work after/above the deflection point is called maximal work or Anaerobic Work, i.e. w/o oxygen

7. Any work before/below the deflection point is called sub-maximal work or Aerobic Work

8. As heart rate rises, LACTATE rises slowly UNTIL threshold speed / heart rate is reached. Then LACTATE increases exponentially. Threshold occurs at a lactate concentrate of apprx 4 mmol/litre, though it may vary

9. If work continues at a high rate beyond the threshold speed / heart rate, ACIDOSIS will slow the athlete down until exercise is stopped

10. This is known as the LACTATE CURVE

11. Good training will move the deflection point and lactate curve, allowing the athlete to run faster at aerobic speeds

This Threshold Heart Rate is clearly defined in this book by HR using the formula: RestHR + .85 x (MaxHR - RestHR).

It isn't some abstract term according to H.I.T. It is a rate of work/HR/speed at which lactate begins to rise exponentially, and the HR at which that occurs can be closely estimated using HR information.

HR training is unreliable wrote:

H.I.T. Reader wrote:

That's incorrect. As I mentioned, his 1hr MP tempos are done at 75%-80% HRR. This is what he equates to Lydiard's "3/4 effort". So your MP tempo HR range according to the formula would be 154.5 to 165, which seems to be pretty close to what you said you thought your marathon HR is. For the marathon he recommends only throwing in one or two LT runs as the race approaches. No need to do a ton of Vo2 or LT+ type stuff. That 10km race you just did would pretty much qualify as one of those LT workouts. Yeah, seems odd that your HR was only at 168.5.

I think his main point is that for most people, LT is around 85% or less of HRR. During the base training period (which is the majority of the time), you want to avoid or at least minimize the time spent above that threshold. Using that LT HR as a boundary is a good way to play it safe if you're having a hard time figuring out what pace or effort level your harder runs should be.

What's incorrect?

You said:

Lactacte Threshold HR = RestHR + .85 x (MaxHR - RestHR)

For me, this is:

45 + .85 x (195 - 45) = 172.5

But this is higher than my 10k race pace, at least under heavy training. This wasn't a workout effort -- it was all out.

Disciple wrote:

I find if I ditch the watch comfortably hard as an effort is a lot easier to find. If I'm wearing a watch and have been looking at or thinking about pace tables, race times, etc. recently comfortably hard is darn near impossible to find. Also I would describe comfortably hard as closer to the effort of a the first half of an even-paced half. The first hour of an even paced marathon is easy on tapered legs.

Every single thread about tempo runs people argue that tempo pace is harder than comfortably hard because it's being done in non-race conditions and not on fresh legs. What these people are missing is that if you're doing a tempo during the middle of a big training week, your pace should be slower to account for these factors as opposed to increasing your effort to hit the pace prescribed by the calculators.

Because of the variability in external and internal conditions from day to day, true threshold/tempo training can only be done by feel or by lactic measurement. If you're running it by time/pace and not accounting for external and internal conditions than you're most likely missing LT pace. If you do account for external and internal conditions by say for example adding +10s, tempo pace has become subjective and if it's going to be subjective it might as well be subjective feel rather than subjective time.

oregon oldtimer wrote:

Anyone "tasting" lactate is way above their LT. By definition the lactate threshold is "the exercise intensity ABOVE WHICH lactate begins to accumulate in a non-linear fashion".

The LT occurs at different intensities (both absolute and relative) in different individuals. Generally speaking, you know when you cross (go at a higher intensity) the LT when talking becomes too much effort. I recall doing 9-10 mile progression runs with a group. We would start at 6:30 and then drop the pace down about 10-seconds per mile. We were all talking and have a great time and then somewhere about 4-5-6 miles some individuals began talking less and/or they talked with a lot of effort (some completely quit). Eventually everyone quit talking and took care of the task at hand.

Bottom line, below LT you can carry on a conversation without much effort. At the LT you can still carry on a conversation but it requires a bit more effort but it is quite manageable. Above the LT and you can't talk without quite a bit of effort and you would rather not. Most decent/competitive marathon runners can run at an intensity that is ~10% greater than that corresponding with the LT.

Dril wrote:

oregon oldtimer wrote:

I ran 69 min for a 1/2 and this was definitely at a pace above my LT, which was ~5:30 pace. Marathon pace is generally just slightly faster than LT pace. One has to remember that the pace at LT doesn't result in any net increase in lactate. It is the intensity above the LT wherein lactate becomes an issue.

The thing I find interesting in the discussion of the LT is that a lot of individuals give the impression that that this is an "absolute" concept and that the LT is easy to measure and determine. I just do a LT test, take the data, and then go put it to use. Nothing can be further from the truth. What criteria are you using to determine the LT? 2mM rise from baseline, 4 mM, breakpoint...??? 10 scientists will give you 10 different answers.

Unless you are one of the Galen Rupps or Eliud Kipchoges of the world, just go run! Too many people are splitting-hairs over whether their LT is 5:16 or 5:21 pace and then discussing this while eating a bowl of chocolate-frosted-sugar-bombs. Until you are doing most EVERYTHING else right, there is no need to be concerned with whether or not the LT is 5:16 or 5:21 pace.

The LT that is commonly referred to on these forums, which was popularized by Jack Daniels, is the pace you can run for an hour, also known as AT or tempo pace. Anaerobic threshold (AT) and lactate threshold (LT) are used interchangeably around here, which is fine. AT/LT is roughly 4mmol I guess, although no one cares what mmol it is. When talk about LT we aren't talking about the precise mmol inflection point, it is simply the term we use so that we all share a common language. Like you point out normal runners can't measure mmol.

I'm not sure what you mean by 69 pace being "above" your LT. LT is slightly faster than HM pace, not slightly slower than MP pace . You may be thinking of aerobic threshold (AeT) which is the pace you can run for a few hours. AeT also the pace at where lactate begins to accumulate above resting levels. No one really talks above AeT.

Also as a side note in response to your rant: literally no one is sitting around splitting hairs over if LT is 5:16 or 5:21. People come here to talk and discuss training concepts. When we aren't talking here we are out "just" running. That said, we could split hairs on this forum and still go out and just run. The two activities aren't mutually exclusive.

H.I.T. Reader wrote:

Interesting. I listened to the podcast and even in their discussion, threshold is still this abstract thing. This is what I like about Healthy Intelligent Training. The Lactate or Anaerobic Threshold is defined clearly. I wish I could post a graphic from the book, but to sum up the graphic:

1. As running speed increases, heart rate rises proportionally to a certain point

2. This point is called the Deflection Point

3. The speed run at the deflection point is called Threshold Speed

4. The heart rate at the deflection point is called the Threshold Heart Rate

5. The heart rate levels off after this point till it reaches maximum

6. Any work after/above the deflection point is called maximal work or Anaerobic Work, i.e. w/o oxygen

7. Any work before/below the deflection point is called sub-maximal work or Aerobic Work

8. As heart rate rises, LACTATE rises slowly UNTIL threshold speed / heart rate is reached. Then LACTATE increases exponentially. Threshold occurs at a lactate concentrate of apprx 4 mmol/litre, though it may vary

9. If work continues at a high rate beyond the threshold speed / heart rate, ACIDOSIS will slow the athlete down until exercise is stopped

10. This is known as the LACTATE CURVE

11. Good training will move the deflection point and lactate curve, allowing the athlete to run faster at aerobic speeds

This Threshold Heart Rate is clearly defined in this book by HR using the formula: RestHR + .85 x (MaxHR - RestHR).

It isn't some abstract term according to H.I.T. It is a rate of work/HR/speed at which lactate begins to rise exponentially, and the HR at which that occurs can be closely estimated using HR information.

H.I.T. Reader wrote:

Interesting. I listened to the podcast and even in their discussion, threshold is still this abstract thing. This is what I like about Healthy Intelligent Training. The Lactate or Anaerobic Threshold is defined clearly. I wish I could post a graphic from the book, but to sum up the graphic:

1. As running speed increases, heart rate rises proportionally to a certain point

2. This point is called the Deflection Point

3. The speed run at the deflection point is called Threshold Speed

4. The heart rate at the deflection point is called the Threshold Heart Rate

5. The heart rate levels off after this point till it reaches maximum

6. Any work after/above the deflection point is called maximal work or Anaerobic Work, i.e. w/o oxygen

7. Any work before/below the deflection point is called sub-maximal work or Aerobic Work

8. As heart rate rises, LACTATE rises slowly UNTIL threshold speed / heart rate is reached. Then LACTATE increases exponentially. Threshold occurs at a lactate concentrate of apprx 4 mmol/litre, though it may vary

9. If work continues at a high rate beyond the threshold speed / heart rate, ACIDOSIS will slow the athlete down until exercise is stopped

10. This is known as the LACTATE CURVE

11. Good training will move the deflection point and lactate curve, allowing the athlete to run faster at aerobic speeds

This Threshold Heart Rate is clearly defined in this book by HR using the formula: RestHR + .85 x (MaxHR - RestHR).

It isn't some abstract term according to H.I.T. It is a rate of work/HR/speed at which lactate begins to rise exponentially, and the HR at which that occurs can be closely estimated using HR information.