Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:
* wrote:
Yeah, even Bob Kennedy could run 12:58 when EPO became available.
(not insinuating anything, just pointing out the parallel with the OP's post)
EPO was bloody brilliant, worth 25-30s back in the limitless days.
Mind boggling! The 13:20ish guys could now break the prestigious 13 min barrier.
* wrote:
Or you can look at it like this - once Geb ran 12:44 it opened a mental block for all runners.
I didn't see Kennedy as an EPO guy but someone who was fit and running hard to keep up in the races.
And the others were now going after faster paces once they saw it could be done.
Kennedy would have been the world record holder if he ran his 12:58 PR two years and three months earlier.
The thing is, he was 5th in that race and the winning time was 12:45. Not likely he would have run 12:58 while leading after a rabbit dropped off.
I'm not throwing BK under the bus.
I'm showing how the entire sport was elevated and it wasn't necessarily all due to EPO.
As for Aouita, he would have run faster than 12:58 if he was in that race, but we don't know how much faster (certainly not 12:45).
And he was juicing in his own way, probably taking drugs that would have failed a 1996 test.
Trained with Kim McDonald's bunch, including Daniel Komen.
Oh sure you're not. You just had to throw Bob Kennedy under the bus with that remark. You're the first one I ever heard of on this forum smearing Mr. Kennedy.
LOL. Hoping this is sarcasm.
Kennedy checks a lot of the boxes. Agent. Training group. Training camps in Kenya and Australia. Even the classic "thyroid condition" that everyone knocks Rupp for having...
He was an idol to me for sure, but let's put our thinking caps on now.
Old Man 2 Lapper wrote:
Henry Rono was a great runner but the statement of being versatile just isn't accurate. Being as good in Said was in the 800m to the 10k shows more versatility than having a great range in only distance running.
Remember that Aouita did drop down to the 800 for an entire season in 88. It's not as if he ran that 10000m time the week before his best 800m time. He devoted a full season to 800m with the aim of running Gold in Seoul (and proving himself 'the most versatile runner in history) and he finished with bronze and pb of just under 1:44. For a 3:29 1500m runner that isn't extraordinary, especially that he was almost certainly juiced to the gills. How many elite runners in history have tried devoting full seasons to new distances like Aouita did?
Steve Ovett would likely have medaled in the 5000m in Moscow 1980 if he had ran it (i.e. 800 Gold and 5000m medal). That's without any training for it.
Fed-Up wrote:
Coevett wrote:
The fact is white runners have actually underperformed because they had less motivation competing against hordes of African EPO cheats.
"Hordes" of African EPO cheats? There's plenty of hard working & dedicated Africans who weren't "EPO cheats." You're stereotyping and categorizing most Africans as cheats. It would be like me saying England has nothing but hordes of arrogant, pompous & imperious people (maybe it does after all with the ideology of the "British Empire" ?).
It seems like in almost every post of yours, you do nothing but throw cheapshots at the Africans. But yet if someone criticizes your "holier than thou" boys of GB, you go ballistic on them. So what - your boys were clean as a whistle...okay great. ? But why do you keep picking on all African runners? Did you race and get beaten by them at one time? I've never seen so many inflammatory remarks toward one ethnic group.
+1
Coevett wrote:
Old Man 2 Lapper wrote:
Henry Rono was a great runner but the statement of being versatile just isn't accurate. Being as good in Said was in the 800m to the 10k shows more versatility than having a great range in only distance running.
Remember that Aouita did drop down to the 800 for an entire season in 88. It's not as if he ran that 10000m time the week before his best 800m time. He devoted a full season to 800m with the aim of running Gold in Seoul (and proving himself 'the most versatile runner in history) and he finished with bronze and pb of just under 1:44. For a 3:29 1500m runner that isn't extraordinary, especially that he was almost certainly juiced to the gills. How many elite runners in history have tried devoting full seasons to new distances like Aouita did?
Steve Ovett would likely have medaled in the 5000m in Moscow 1980 if he had ran it (i.e. 800 Gold and 5000m medal). That's without any training for it.
Aouita's hamstring was seriously injured before Seoul during a hard session in Barcelona like 2 weeks before the prelims. That was the reason for running only the 8 and not the 15 as well. As an aside, aouita's also has an 8:2x steeple to his name. Excluding that, Alan Webb and Aouita have very similar pr's.
Coevett wrote:
Old Man 2 Lapper wrote:
Henry Rono was a great runner but the statement of being versatile just isn't accurate. Being as good in Said was in the 800m to the 10k shows more versatility than having a great range in only distance running.
Remember that Aouita did drop down to the 800 for an entire season in 88. It's not as if he ran that 10000m time the week before his best 800m time. He devoted a full season to 800m with the aim of running Gold in Seoul (and proving himself 'the most versatile runner in history) and he finished with bronze and pb of just under 1:44. For a 3:29 1500m runner that isn't extraordinary, especially that he was almost certainly juiced to the gills. How many elite runners in history have tried devoting full seasons to new distances like Aouita did?
Steve Ovett would likely have medaled in the 5000m in Moscow 1980 if he had ran it (i.e. 800 Gold and 5000m medal). That's without any training for it.
Besides intense personal bias regarding ovett, what makes you draw that final conclusion?
https://youtu.be/7xiIzhuMOVQOvett/Coe/Elliot fan wrote:
Coevett wrote:
Remember that Aouita did drop down to the 800 for an entire season in 88. It's not as if he ran that 10000m time the week before his best 800m time. He devoted a full season to 800m with the aim of running Gold in Seoul (and proving himself 'the most versatile runner in history) and he finished with bronze and pb of just under 1:44. For a 3:29 1500m runner that isn't extraordinary, especially that he was almost certainly juiced to the gills. How many elite runners in history have tried devoting full seasons to new distances like Aouita did?
Steve Ovett would likely have medaled in the 5000m in Moscow 1980 if he had ran it (i.e. 800 Gold and 5000m medal). That's without any training for it.
Besides intense personal bias regarding ovett, what makes you draw that final conclusion?
https://youtu.be/7xiIzhuMOVQ
Steve Ovett raced John Treacy the week after Moscow and infamously lost because he was too 'arrogant'. But if he hadn't been suffering from a bad cold, Treacy wouldn't have even been near him in the home straight. John Treacy had just finished 7th in the Moscow 5000 final, despite himself collapsing from the heat in one of the 10000 rounds.
The 86 Commonwealth final he blew away Hutchins and Buckner, who were both top 5 ranked guys for the next few years. They reached the bell only a second slower than in Moscow. I know Ovett had moved up seriously in 86 but at the same time he wasn't the athlete he was in 1980. It's hard not to see him getting in the medals in the 5000 Moscow, whether or not he would have beaten Yifter.
There's no doubt he would have been one of the favourites, evidenced by the fact it was such a shock that Treacey 'beat' him, despite just having finished 7th in Moscow.
Entering the conversation late here. So, Treacy had just gotten 7th and beat Ovett; but Ovett would have medaled? Makes complete sense! Ovett would definitely not have beaten Yifter in Moscow and probably would have finished behind Coghlan.
Would have being your key word there.
Yes, Said was extremely taped up then but did it when it counted, not your hypothetical "would have" medaled. The funniest thing is you thinking he was clean. That was a pretty dirty time my friend.
Letsrun Logic wrote:
Entering the conversation late here. So, Treacy had just gotten 7th and beat Ovett; but Ovett would have medaled? Makes complete sense! Ovett would definitely not have beaten Yifter in Moscow and probably would have finished behind Coghlan.
Late as in you didn't even bother to read my whole post? He beat Ovett because of Ovett's over confidence. Have you ever watched that race? Ovett was also very sick. I never said he would have beaten Yifter.
It's funny how the experts here always claim that Ovett would never have been as good a 5000m runner as guys like Coghlan, Moorcroft etc even though all those guys were only 5000m runners because they could no longer compete with Ovett and Coe at 1500 and whenever Ovett did dabble in the 5000m or longer distances for fun (1978-81), he showed light years greater potential then they had until they moved up full time.
In that famous two mile WR against Rono in 1978, Coghlan finished 10th. In 81, Ovett again beat him over two miles by over a second.
Old Man 2 Lapper wrote:
Would have being your key word there.
Yes, Said was extremely taped up then but did it when it counted, not your hypothetical "would have" medaled. The funniest thing is you thinking he was clean. That was a pretty dirty time my friend.
Well Ovett has a Commonwealth 5000 gold and Olympic 800m gold and that itself is arguably at least equal to Aouita winning a 5000 gold (when he dodged Ovett, Coe, Cram in the 1500) and his 800 bronze from Seoul.
We have no evidence it was a particulary dirty time in the middle-distance events apart from Aouita.
Letsrun Logic wrote:
Entering the conversation late here. So, Treacy had just gotten 7th and beat Ovett; but Ovett would have medaled? Makes complete sense! Ovett would definitely not have beaten Yifter in Moscow and probably would have finished behind Coghlan.
Yifter was a 5/10k specialist, and it is doubtful Ovett would have beaten him after rounds in Moscow based on his 800/1500 training. Coghlan however was a jumped up miler, who had the good sense to move up in distance knowing he would have no chance against Coe and Ovett. There is no doubt that in Moscow Ovett was good enough to beat Coghlan over 5000m, and would very likely have therefore medalled.
Don’t forget, Coghlan was beaten over 4 Miles, after running 13:2* that summer, by Coe in autumn ‘78.
Coevett wrote:
Letsrun Logic wrote:
Entering the conversation late here. So, Treacy had just gotten 7th and beat Ovett; but Ovett would have medaled? Makes complete sense! Ovett would definitely not have beaten Yifter in Moscow and probably would have finished behind Coghlan.
Late as in you didn't even bother to read my whole post? He beat Ovett because of Ovett's over confidence. Have you ever watched that race? Ovett was also very sick. I never said he would have beaten Yifter.
It's funny how the experts here always claim that Ovett would never have been as good a 5000m runner as guys like Coghlan, Moorcroft etc even though all those guys were only 5000m runners because they could no longer compete with Ovett and Coe at 1500 and whenever Ovett did dabble in the 5000m or longer distances for fun (1978-81), he showed light years greater potential then they had until they moved up full time.
You sure are twisted up tight, man. I kind of wonder how people like that are in real life away from a message forum. Anyway, to answer, yes I've seen the race; and yes I read your entire post. I'm actually a fan of ovett, and have a signed copy of his biography in my library. However, I really believe that it's extremely difficult to gauge a 1500m man's potential over the 5000m. All the woulda coulda shoulda predictions are pretty much fruitless. Though it's fun to banter, I'd say that kind of gibberish/foolishness is best left to ventolin/calculo. You strike me over the years in your posts as being a very bright individual, but you definitely let your allegiance affect your thinking when it comes to statements related to ovett.
You are correct, I think they both were great runners and I've had a chance to meet both of them. I have always been a Said fan for his range and what he brought to the table. Although the Commonwealth Games are not on the same level as the Olympics Ovett obviously showed the range that very few have shown since.
I regret saying that "dirty" statement with Ovett because most trolls here always jump to that since they have never really competed themselves.
Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:Aouita had access to everything westerners had available to them
idiot
then explain why westerners coudn't run 3'29.71 with ~ 13m !!! extra wide on bends with kick of 52.7 !!! with some of that included wide running on penultimate bend !!, all with little drafting
->
3'28-flat if route-1 !!!
with intrinsic 52-low kick !!!
->
~ 3'26-mid
explain why westerners were not in this shape in '85 ???
in fact no westerner has been ever in this shape in synthetic track era
why is that when westerners have truck-loads more $$$ than africans & better facilities/coaching/physiologists/nutritionists/etc/etc ...!!!
how was he capable of 3'26-mid in '85 & no westerner in synthetic track era has ever been ???
Coevett wrote:Aouita transformed himself when he moved fulltime to Italy in the winter of 82, as well as winter training in the US .in 83. He was already 23 and had spent several years at the elite French sporting academy and remained a b level runner all that time
so ?
french more likely interested in their own guys than some colonial
He also had a Belgian doctor who was later busted for supplying numerous athlete's and cyclists epo
nonsense
that belgian doc is mentioned vaguely with Aouita & with mourhit who was running nearly 15y later than Aouita's peak of '84/'85
it's laughable same doc was involved 15y later !!!
it's laughable connection considering Aouita was utter rubbish from '90
I was reading an article about the Moroccan system for elite runners in the time of El G. It sounded one of the most advanced in the world and no doubt had the best doping system.
enlighten the world ???
calculo wrote:
Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:Aouita had access to everything westerners had available to them
idiot
then explain why westerners coudn't run 3'29.71 with ~ 13m !!! extra wide on bends with kick of 52.7 !!! with some of that included wide running on penultimate bend !!, all with little drafting
->
3'28-flat if route-1 !!!
with intrinsic 52-low kick !!!
->
~ 3'26-mid
explain why westerners were not in this shape in '85 ???
in fact no westerner has been ever in this shape in synthetic track era
why is that when westerners have truck-loads more $$$ than africans & better facilities/coaching/physiologists/nutritionists/etc/etc ...!!!
how was he capable of 3'26-mid in '85 & no westerner in synthetic track era has ever been ???
Intitially, I was going to ignore your imbicilic rantings. But what the heck, I already violated my new year's resolution in the Bekele thread. Every idiot knows that Cram was better Aouita in 1985. Cram dealt to Cruz, Gray, Koskei etc over his weaker event with ease. His 3:46 mile is not a true reflection of the shape he was in that day, but he was faster than Aouita, but Cram could not do 3:26, which means Aouita had no chance at all of that time.
But more importantly Venti, your reply to me had no link to what we were discussing, which was whether or not Aouita had access to 1980s doping. So your reply, given its random tangent nature, indicates to me someone with psychological issues. Better get that checked out mate.