Was the Balboa Park Foot Locker course different in the 1980s?

The course was probably shorter back in the '80s and '90s because kids in those days didn't run sufficient mileage to actually be able to finish a full 5K.

Wrong again wrote:

To claim that Ruben Reina would have run faster than Verzbicas or Hunter is ludicrous.

How about comparing Fernandez to Marc Davis.

Fernandez PR is 14 seconds faster than Davis at CA state meet and yet he was close to 30 seconds behind at Footlocker. That just doesn't make sense. The only explanation that is logical is that the course has slowed down over the years.

Hmmmmm... I don't recall questioning the talent of Verzbicas or Hunter. And YES, Reuben did run faster than both of them as proven by his course record he ran on that day. You can't bring in the Would of, Could of, Should of argument based on speculation and subjective opinions about the validity of the course. Both were and are talented runners but were not in the 1986 race. Your Fernandez/Davis comparison doesn't hold water due to a million reasons as to why German ran much slower than Marc at Balboa. He may of been sick or had a bad race. Also, Balboa Park was literally Marc's home course in High School and he was a HUGE favorite to run well in front of family and friends. My point is that people are claiming the course is slower and that the runners from the 1980's had an advantage time wise by running on a shorter/faster course (See my 1983 comment where Giusto ran 14:54 on a wet-soggy-slow course). At the end of the day who cares how fast anyone runs on the course. It's all about the "W".

Seems like it has already been mentioned, if not on this thread, then a different thread about FL that there have been slight changes to the course over the years. It has also been stated that the rules have changed about how to measure a course,a and if FL follows those rules, the course should be longer than it was prior to the rule change.

Th e NCAA Course in Terre Haute was built as a course country course and has a permanent starting line and finish line. The bulk of that course is fenced and there is no change in that course layout, yet it is changing just because of what it is built on.

Course records are great to look back on, but rarely, if ever, are they a true comparison from year to year on who may have been the best runner ever to compete on that course.

If I remember correctly, Fernandez made a big mistake by not wearing spikes at Balboa. Apparently it was slippery that year? I remember seeing that.

Has there been any change in the number of weeks between the FL regionals and finals?

have lived in SD all my life and have seen this course evolve over the years... it's a bit longer and slower now... that may upset folks but the truth is exactly as written above... "Course records are great to look back on, but rarely, if ever, are they a true comparison from year to year on who may have been the best runner ever to compete on that course."

that is all.

83rnr wrote:

I just noticed , are the runners wearing spikes ???

You noticed the question? Or you noticed they wore spikes?

83rnr wrote:

We were not allowed spikes in 1983?

Wouldn't you know better than us? I mean, it sounds like you were there. So why are you asking all of us?

83rnr wrote:

Just a thought.

Have you suffered multiple concussions?

Gotta bee wrote:

to the people saying guys are puss*s and dont wanna run fast, explain the best high school runner ever in Drew Hunter only running 14:55 going really hard, might have been a little better if he was pushed 2 1/2 miles like riena was but 20 seconds off the record?

You can't possibly believe that Drew Hunter is the best high school runner ever, can you?

Seems like Chris Solinsky needs more respect as the era-graded GOAT of FLN.

Jonathan Gault wrote:

Here's the all-time list of fastest times at FL Finals at Balboa Park:

14:36.8 Reuben Reina 1985

14:38.1 Marc Davis 1986

14:40.2 Chris Solinsky 2002

14:41.3 Mark Mastalir 1985

14:41.7 Adam Goucher 1993

14:49.8 Todd Williams 1986

14:50.0 Scott Fry 1984

14:50.9 Mark Dani 1985

14:51.4 Jonathan Hume 1985

Davis would have easily taken down Reina's record had he not started celebrating 300 meters out. He was well clear of the field, hooting, hollering, running backwards and and even signing autographs all the way in. Not the brightest bulb, but lb for lb, I'd take him over anyone at the high school level for 5K CC.

Lindgren? Ritz? Come on...Ritz beat Webb and hall (3:53 and 4:00 equiv) by 20+ seconds.

I have a really hard time believing the course was exactly the same in the mid 80s on. Very few of those guys are on basically anyone’s list for greatest HS XC runner ever.

Every single other course record has gone down the last 30 years and this one isnt even close. Verzibicas ran 8:29, Cheserek 8:39i, Derrick (prob tired from NXN which none of these guys ran) 13:55 in a HS only race, Fernandez had a bad race but lit the rest of Cali up the rest of the season, Rupp, Kiptoo, Withrow, Mcdougals year...none of them within 4 seconds of this list (people will throw out withrow but he ran 13:37 as a freshman I believe or something close to that), Hunter doesnt even get on this list. Not to mention Kennedy. Torres or Mohamed didnt run at Balboa as upperclassmen either. Add Fisher to this list. Reina was very good, but beating ALL of the guys I just listed by 20+ seconds...come on.

So 7 guys in the top 10 all time from a 3 year period but the course was the same? MAYBE i can buy the dirt being worse than the grass. Trautman had an off day so he is an outlier and THOSE GUYS WERE ALL GREAT HS RUNNERS...but in the last 31 years, there have been a couple dozen guys better than a handful of guys on that list and none are within 4-5 seconds of being on it.

All the course has to be is 30-50m off (not going around one tree or something) for it to make enough of a difference for those years to be skewed.

Goucher and Solinsky had unreal college careers. Todd Williams was amazing, especially in the 90s. GREAT GREAT runners for basically all those guys. But especially since the girls times are also skewed toward the mid 80s like Gault said...there has to be something a little up at least. Cuffe set basically every record her senior year, hasay, a ton of other 9:15-9:20 3k girls (10:00 3200/2 mile) runners are no where near the mid 80s times. It just doesnt make sense. Too much data against it.

I'm not claiming the course is slower (or faster) than it was when I raced it in the late 80s, only that it is essentially the same one I've also raced within the last 5 years. I didn't measure it then or now and can only say the same general route is the same. I would doubt race officials in a national championship, some of whom have worked it every year from Kinney to today's Footlocker, would allow it to vary as much as you and others suggest. But who knows? I don't and you sure don't.

I am claiming I'd wager on the mid 80s Marc Davis against anyone, anytime, all-time on that course regardless of who was in the field and the conditions. Another argument altogether I suppose, but the guy was a beast and the "data" supports my position.

Ca$hclay wrote:

I'm not claiming the course is slower (or faster) than it was when I raced it in the late 80s, only that it is essentially the same one I've also raced within the last 5 years. I didn't measure it then or now and can only say the same general route is the same. I would doubt race officials in a national championship, some of whom have worked it every year from Kinney to today's Footlocker, would allow it to vary as much as you and others suggest. But who knows? I don't and you sure don't.

I am claiming I'd wager on the mid 80s Marc Davis against anyone, anytime, all-time on that course regardless of who was in the field and the conditions. Another argument altogether I suppose, but the guy was a beast and the "data" supports my position.

Davis, Dani, etc... were great athletes, no debate. But as is said above, the course is slightly different and slower from back in the day. I've been around that long and feel comfortable saying it. Review the videos posted earlier in the thread and in particular look at the picnic loop... it's slightly different now and some of it is no longer on grass. Also, the dog loop used to have grass (it's now dirt) and is slightly different than it was in the 80s as well. Things can change in 30+ years, really.

Hrmmmm wrote:

Looking at old Kinney XC videos on youtube, the course seems a lot "cleaner" compared to past years. The terrain doesn't seem as uneven and dry as it was with recent years. There is even low cut grass on a lot of spots throughout the course back then that now seem to be just rocks, dirt, and sand. There also isn't giant dust clouds blowing in front of the runners in 1985 compared to 2017 lol. Better footing is more optimal for faster times, but deeper competition is a big factor as well.

1985

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhpDLTuSpcU

2017

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-8HWxDle2A&feature=youtu.be

What I see there is a 4:10 miler beating a 4:13 miler while flying The Horns. Pretty decent state meet material.

Lefties are Idiots wrote:

"climate change" is nothing but a lie used by the mensheviks to try and derail Western industry lol

The term was popularized by a Republican strategist during the Bush administration under the assumption that it would weaken the science in the small minds of drones like, oh, "lefties are idiots."

Anything else you'd like to display your ignorance about?

It was faster back in the day because runners had lots of extra training time in that post-season period and were just waiting to explode. Now you have California runners for example, racing all out week after week right up until the Footlocker meet. There was no State Meet in CA back then, and maybe other places too. Also, kids didn't travel to big meets during the season. I think they just had lots more in the tank back then by the time Footlocker rolled around.

Wrong again wrote:

To claim that Ruben Reina would have run faster than Verzbicas or Hunter is ludicrous.

How about comparing Fernandez to Marc Davis.

Fernandez PR is 14 seconds faster than Davis at CA state meet and yet he was close to 30 seconds behind at Footlocker. That just doesn't make sense. The only explanation that is logical is that the course has slowed down over the years.

When German Fernandez raced Footlocker, he was nursing a sore foot. Because of that, he refused to wear spikes. That decision slowed him down immensely. You need spikes on a grass course.

Huh man wrote:

Gotta bee wrote:

to the people saying guys are puss*s and dont wanna run fast, explain the best high school runner ever in Drew Hunter only running 14:55 going really hard, might have been a little better if he was pushed 2 1/2 miles like riena was but 20 seconds off the record?

You can't possibly believe that Drew Hunter is the best high school runner ever, can you?

let me guess Jim Ryun?

Balboa was more Rocky in the 80s.