Warning. Since the USMNT is out of the World Cup, we will shut the site down for 24 hours.

America does soccer all wrong. Period. I sometimes go to Timbers games, and while as events they are fun, the standard of MLS play is very low. Robotic, predictable and almost completely lacking in spontaneity. The women are actually better in that respect

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2016/jun/01/us-soccer-diversity-problem-world-football

No one gives a shit about soccer so quite talking about it.

It did seem Arena made of point of not playing guys from Europe. Cameron starts in the Premier League and he doesn't get on the pitch? Who was in his place?

Did he really blame US politics on this? I'd like to see those comments. Unbelievable.

I clicked here thinking about Mutant Ninja Turtles. US Mutant Ninja Turtles. They've grown up.

People have been saying this forever, and it's a ridiculous fiction, largely premised on the ideas that (1) there is such thing as generic "athleticism"

Look into the sports gene, or just open your eyes and look at different body types.

and (2) if the U.S. isn't the best at something, it's because we don't want to be. (There is some element of truth to the latter, though world soccer has proven remarkable in the degree to which the tiny countries are able to compete.)

Yes, there is some truth to this.

Nobody decides to play soccer because they're not good enough or athletic enough for another sport. They play because people in their family and community play--it's what they're exposed to.

True in most cases, but despite your apparent disbelief in genetics, this just means that less athletic families produce less athletic kids.

By the way, youth baseball and football, in particular, are totally withering away,

"Totally withering away" is an exaggeration. Black kids haven't been playing much baseball, and white kids less and less as well. (See the single mom theory - for both white and black).

and no kid EVER chooses track over a team sport if they're good enough to be a team sport star.

I wouldn't say NO kid, but you have a point to some degree.

Gulati has been spectacularly ineffective and keeping Klinsmann all that time hurt youth development and Olympic team development and national team development. The results show that. Klinsmann put the U.S. in a deep hole in qualifying and Arena, after many early successes, allowed this team to limp in. There was just the good win over Panama and here they lose on the road to a tiny country ranked 99th in the world when it counts. Meanwhile, Argentina, having limped through a far, far tougher qualifying process in South America, gets its first win in Ecuador in qualifying since 1960 when it has to win to go on. The U.S. has the resources and talent to be able to win consistently in away games in this region, outside of perhaps Costa Rica and Mexico. This is a disaster and I hope that from this disaster true change in the developmental programs will come. There is no reason whatsoever that the U.S. with 320 million people and tens of millions of immigrants, plus a national league, should ever be in this position playing against Central American and tiny Caribbean nations.

Yes I must agree, an utter disaster and a very depressing outcome. I was looking forward to epic revenge against Belgium and a chance to make Germany atone for the hateful Frings handball that denied the US the chance to advance to historic stages in that 2002 QF.

The US is not as bad as some on this thread have suggested. They have advanced beyond the elimination phase in three recent WC tournaments - 94, 02 and 14. There are a number of higher-ranked teams that haven't done that. But they are inconsistent and the current situation is puzzling, losing to T&T is cataclysmic indeed.

The women's team are miles better, but we all know that. The reason is simple...like the best NFL/MBA/MLB teams, the women's system tolerates the thuggery and/or social ineptitude of the best/most creative/wacko-skilled players (e.g. Morgan, Rapinoe, the infamous Solo) in the interests of playing the top talent. It's very rare that a national women's team contains more thugs than the equivalent men's team but US WNT is it. Buut....they win, almost always, their worst world ranking ever is #2 they've won multiple World Cups etc. If the women's team fails to qualify then there's total disaster, then we won't accept their thuggery lol!

That brings up another point. Gulati can't be as incompetent as you all suggest if he's presided over the WNT's continued domination and selected coaches who have accomplished this mission. If he can do this with WNT why not MNT?

The assertion that the best athletes in the US do not play soccer is correct. As an example, D1 soccer players are solid athletes, but they do not even come close to the athleticism of a D1 point guard. Anyone who has interacted with the two groups could discern the difference in athleticism immediately. The quickness and coordination of a D1 point-guard is other-worldly by normal person standards. No doubt if they grew up dribbling soccer balls as much as basketballs they would elevate the level of play in the country significantly.

To think the US could compete against some of the best athletes in the world with people who would not even be the best athletes in many high schools is hubris. The best chance for future US soccer success is that the fear of concussions in football generates interest in the sport from higher caliber athletes.

SoccaMZUNGU wrote:

That brings up another point. Gulati can't be as incompetent as you all suggest if he's presided over the WNT's continued domination and selected coaches who have accomplished this mission. If he can do this with WNT why not MNT?

Comparing the current state of the MNT and WNT for the US not a fair comparison. Several factors go into this, most notably the fact that only about 25 countries in the world actually put funding towards women's sports (okay, I am exaggerating a little, but its definitely not 200 like it is for men's soccer). Obviously something like Title IX here in the US has greatly benefited women's sports and why we are vastly superior in many of them.

At the same time, the USWNT has had it's "struggles" both in terms of coaches and results. However, they function like a world leader in the sport, ie 'recent results aren't good enough". The difference between the MNT and the WNT is that for the WNT anything short of an Olympic Gold and a World Cup deep run is considered disappointment. For the MNT, it's "Hey, we got to the 2nd round of the World Cup. Success!". It's also "Hey, we produced a Christian Pulisic. See US Soccer is doing well with player development". It's like don't worry about the fact that you got destroyed in the 2nd round of the World Cup vs Belgium (if it wasn't for the heroics of Tim Howard, that game would have been 8-1) or the fact that we need 10 other Christian Pulisic's on the field.

I agree with some of what you say. I have made the point elsewhere on LR that the WNT benefits from Title IX for one thing, but also because the very best US female athletes can choose professional soccer without any opportunity cost. Their outcomes as soccer professionals are as good as if not better than any other choice. For the guys soccer is a second or third tier choice compared with NFL, NBA, MLB etc. This means, of the top 1% in natural athleticism at college level, almost all the women end up in WNT or have that option, and almost none of the men play for MNT.

Also about the mindset, I agree that WNT are superior to the other US teams and their opponents. Defeats are unacceptable and on the very rare occasions they occur, WNT responds. Now Gulati does have a hand in this, he picked Ellis and Sundhage. Also the most talented creatives are thugs and we see than in the litany of WNT arrests and suspensions. Not in MNT.

I don't agree that the Belgium game was the apogee of MNT achievement, as you say they could well have lost that by more if Howard didn't have his career day. The Algeria game in 2010 was a classic, do or die, and the US produced. But the peak was the 02 QF against Germany in which the US should at the very least have gone to penalties. The video is clear, Frings committed a handball offense to steer the Donovan ball out of goal and it wasn't called. The ball broke the plane anyway, it was a goal. Point being, US were a bad non-call away from taking a WC finalist to penalties and maybe moving on to SF themselves.

The question is, why can't they play at that level against Honduras or T&T when it counts in qualifying? Other countries have struggled with quals too notably Argentina which before last night was out, but they delivered and benefited from other results, and are now going. It'll be a different story in the tournament.

Other countries have struggled with quals too notably Argentina which before last night was out, but they delivered and benefited from other results, and are now going. It'll be a different story in the tournament.

In South America, Chile, which is a far better team than any side in North America, didn't make the WC. Argentina is struggling because it is playing very competitive teams loaded with first division European stars. Peru, Paraguay, Uruguay, Ecuador, etc. are all better than any team in North America.

MeHereYouWhere?! wrote:

Wejo,

Stick to running. I know you are a passionate soccer fan but the reality is the US is just NOT a good enough. This is a failure of EVERY level of soccer in the US. Not just at the highest level. There is a belief that just because we are the US we should be good at soccer. Well, congrats, that failed. Countries 1/20th the size of the U.S. and with 1/20th the budget and investment of US Soccer just qualified for the World Cup and the US didn't.

Mark my words, but good will come of this. New ideas, tactics and a better vision for the program will come of this.

Actually Iceland just qualified and has a population of 300,000. That’s 1/1000 of the population of the US.

Haven't read through the whole thread, but LOVE that we lost. I absolutely despise soccer at the high school level. The club system is a meatgrinder and the high school coaches are often club coaches that lie to the high school kids about their talent level so that they can sit the bench on their club teams and that makes money for the coaches.

Club soccer produced this loss and it ought to be a national XC holiday.

Sad day. In addition to flukes and bad performance by the US, it seems like the Central American teams are getting better

The best athletes choose other sports. There is a severe dearth of talent filtering up, although the youth system is pretty decent. I'm

HardLoper wrote:

Sad day. In addition to flukes and bad performance by the US, it seems like the Central American teams are getting better

It was a sad day because of things like the fires in CA, not because somebody lost some diversion from real life.

Sara Palin wrote:

djhsajhksahjksajhdkf wrote:

Texas Hold'em

Texas Hold'em poorly. If you can't bet someone off of pocket 2's, you're terrible

It's you the one who's terrible at poker. You want the person with poket 2's to put all their money in the pot and you'll win it all the great majority of the time. The last thing you want is for them to fold.

zxcvzxcv wrote:

Gulati has been spectacularly ineffective and keeping Klinsmann all that time hurt youth development and Olympic team development and national team development. The results show that. Klinsmann put the U.S. in a deep hole in qualifying and Arena, after many early successes, allowed this team to limp in.

Klinnsman lost to Mexico at home and Panama on the road. That's it. That really isn't that deep a whole. Most you're wanting from playing Mexico is 1 point anyway over the season. Arena did get that on the road to his credit..

We could drill the lesser teams at home but not take care of them on the road. But we can tie Mexico on the road?

How hard is it really to go play Honduras on the road? The same setup as at home would seem to work tactically I'd assume. It's still a soccer pitch. I think mentally the guys aren't ready for the road for whatever reason. That's all I can think of or we change tactics too much as we didn't have a problem getting a point at Mexico. US seems to do OK against decent opponents.

@800 dude wrote:

People have been saying this forever, and it's a ridiculous fiction, largely premised on the ideas that (1) there is such thing as generic "athleticism"

Look into the sports gene, or just open your eyes and look at different body types.

That was exactly my point. There's no GENERIC best athlete. Each sport places unique demands on an athlete, and the optimal physiology for one sport is not the optimal physiology for another sport, which is why it's silly to say that "the best athletes are playing other sports," as though being good at one means you would automatically be good at another.