Of course I don`t think WvN ever will try 800.....but if he will he gonna break 1.40......I am sure.
Of course I don`t think WvN ever will try 800.....but if he will he gonna break 1.40......I am sure.
Coevett wrote:
I was looking through an old thread asking whether 1:40 will ever be broken for the 800m and somebody pointed out that since 1981 - 2005 every male track WR has been bettered by 2 - 5%, yet the 800m by only 0.06%.
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=772154Since 2005 Rushida has of course lowered the 800m by another fraction, but many of the other distances have been lowered still more.
Does this mean that Coe's 1:41.73 was the equivalent of at least say 1:40.5 today, given that improved tracks, shoes etc. must account for the average 3-5% improvement in every other distance since 1981?
A further fact is that although Coe's 1:41 was a bit of an outlier being so far ahead of his rivals in 81, 800m times since the 80's have imrpoved much less than any other distance on the track for men. It's noticeable if you compare 800m times with 400m times. For example, the best 400m time in 1984 was 44.25, and the fifth best time 44.75. For 800m the best time was 1:41.73 and the fifth best time Coe's LA run of 1:43.64
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_in_athletics_(track_and_field)#400_metres
In the Olympic year 32 years later (2016), the best 400m time was 43.03 and the fifth best time 44.01, so the elite were running about a second faster over 1 lap than in 1984. The best 800m time last year was 1:42.15 and the fifth best time 1:42.98 So the best time in 2016 was slower than the best time in 84 (which wasn't even the WR). The 5th best time 2016 would only be the fourth best time in 84. However the best 400m time in 84 wouldn't have got near the top 5 times in 2016.
https://www.iaaf.org/records/toplists/middlelong/800-metres/outdoor/men/senior/2016Elite 400m runners today are about a second faster than 80's guys. 800m runners are perhaps a third of a second faster.
Why should this be? Was there a crop of 800m runners in the 80's that were just so damned talented and better than you'd expect?
You can even go further back, for example Peter Snell ran 1:44.3 on a grass track in the 1960's which is often compared to a 1:42 on a modern track. That time would rank in the top 5 today. Although a 43.96 was run at altitude in Mexico City in 68 I don't think any other 400m time got close to 44 seconds at sea level. Alberto Juantorena ran a 44.6 in 1977 that was the fastest 400m time that year.
If 800m times had progressed since the 80s as much as the other distances, and as much as the 400m, then the top guys should be running 1:40 at their best and threatening to crack 1:40.
I guess most answers will be related to drugs, but I don't think it can be explained entirely by PEDs.
There is perhaps some truth to your analysis, but the point gets exaggerated when you use one athlete. Coe during the 80s, Kipketer during the 90s and Rudisha during the 2000s. There are always a once in a decade special athlete who is ahead of the curve and usually that athlete can't even better there WR performance. That would be like saying 10 years from now sprinters have gotten slower because they can't break 9.58. I will also point out that starting in the late 80s, the 800 took such a precipitous drop off across the board that I suspect something was afoot. Starting in the late 80s, 1:44x would win just about ever world class race. There were a couple fast 1:42x races, but it was not until Wilson Kipketer that we was saw the 800m performances start to equal the early to mid-80s.
COACH J.S å ä ö wrote:
Of course I don`t think WvN ever will try 800.....but if he will he gonna break 1.40......I am sure.
I'm glad you've said this Coach JS.
Now we can use it as a reference point to show anyone who thinks you are credible, that you are not.
There is no need for a drug. It`s proven that fast twitch muscles can be "transformed" to work as slowtwitch.....but....not the other way. WvN is a different type of sprinter- longsprinter that will suit for 800.
But of course.....we "argue" about something that probably never will happen......he don`t have to bother about the 800 ;)
COACH.J.S
COACH J.S å ä ö wrote:
Of course I don`t think WvN ever will try 800.....but if he will he gonna break 1.40......I am sure.
I'm genuinely curious: why do you think he'd break 1:40?
"He does significant aerobic training" is a poor answer. Clyde Hart's programs spent several months a year developing aerobic strength with long repeats (6x800 with limited recovery, for example), tempo and fartlek runs (15 - 30 minutes in length) and steady state runs of up to 45 minutes.
"Because WVN is skinny/looks like he could be an 800 runner" is also a poor answer. He's run 9.94 in the 100; that makes him arguably the most speed-oriented quarter miler ever (perhaps next to Johnson, although I think we'll see a fast 200 from WVN this year that ends that discussion).
Then you get next post to add to that.......He will absolutely run sub 1.40 on one premission .....If i will be the coach! ;)
COACH J.S
COACH J.S å ä ö wrote:
There is no need for a drug. It`s proven that fast twitch muscles can be "transformed" to work as slowtwitch.....but....not the other way. WvN is a different type of sprinter- longsprinter that will suit for 800.
But of course.....we "argue" about something that probably never will happen......he don`t have to bother about the 800 ;)
COACH.J.S
Regarding the 800m.
That's the trouble with these sprinter wimps!
( and don't tell me how hard the 400m is! Get real! )
They don't like hurting ( Bolt, of course, is the ultimate example of this )
Where is the spirit of adventure?
Where is the desire to really mix it.
Of course, money makes them play safe.
And, makes them soft!
800 meter man wrote:
COACH J.S å ä ö wrote:Of course I don`t think WvN ever will try 800.....but if he will he gonna break 1.40......I am sure.
I'm genuinely curious: why do you think he'd break 1:40?
"He does significant aerobic training" is a poor answer. Clyde Hart's programs spent several months a year developing aerobic strength with long repeats (6x800 with limited recovery, for example), tempo and fartlek runs (15 - 30 minutes in length) and steady state runs of up to 45 minutes.
"Because WVN is skinny/looks like he could be an 800 runner" is also a poor answer. He's run 9.94 in the 100; that makes him arguably the most speed-oriented quarter miler ever (perhaps next to Johnson, although I think we'll see a fast 200 from WVN this year that ends that discussion).
I can say at once..... 6x 800 with limited recovery doesn`t develop aerobic strength....more like anaerob strength.....and you know maybe what i say about Fartlek? I say the same as Gerschler " It is not EXACT! " but......If I had coach WvN for 800 it had been in a very different way. A way that is individual exact balanced ....... the "DANCAN"-system way! :)
800 meter man wrote:
COACH J.S å ä ö wrote:Of course I don`t think WvN ever will try 800.....but if he will he gonna break 1.40......I am sure.
I'm genuinely curious: why do you think he'd break 1:40?
"He does significant aerobic training" is a poor answer. Clyde Hart's programs spent several months a year developing aerobic strength with long repeats (6x800 with limited recovery, for example), tempo and fartlek runs (15 - 30 minutes in length) and steady state runs of up to 45 minutes.
"Because WVN is skinny/looks like he could be an 800 runner" is also a poor answer. He's run 9.94 in the 100; that makes him arguably the most speed-oriented quarter miler ever (perhaps next to Johnson, although I think we'll see a fast 200 from WVN this year that ends that discussion).
This is what I'm saying.
WVN is the most pure sprinter to ever grace the 400m. He is faster than MJ in every sense.
What WVN is really proving is that you don't need huge muscles to sprint extremely fast. You need many fast twitch fibres, to strengthen them, and develop the athletes turnover and quickness: not pure power.
But the simpler coaches just see: skinny fast guy, let's move him to the 800m he would be great. Without considering that his muscle fibre make-up is not at all suited and it would take 20 years or perhaps longer to develop enough slow twitch and intermediary fibres to tackle the middle distance events. By which time of course, it's too late.
TG you've never coached him then, or else we'd have missed out on one of the greatest talents of all time and he'd be just another 47/1:50 guy.
Key point of my post was that Hart's programs spent nearly a quarter of their training cycle developing aerobic strength. Not sure what world you're living in where 6x800 is an anaerobic strength workout.
I gave some of your posts credence before because you seemed to know a bit about how some fast athletes were training, but now I'm convinced that you're actually Asbel Kiprop trolling these boards. If so, well played sir. Well played.
800ftw. wrote:
3hr-marathoner wrote:I'm not saying the slow-down should be as modest as going from the 5k to the 10, just that it should be a smaller than it currently is. It's currently about double the slow-down from the 800 to 1500.
why not? Drafting, even for a few hundred meters, is a huge advantage.
The reason for the larger slowdown is due to energy systems. The energy requirements for 400m compared to 800m are vastly different to the 800m compared to the 1500m. I believe the 1500m is more similar to the 10k than the 400m is to the 800m in terms of energy systems.
My point about the 100m is that Rudisha, like Bolt, is a once in a generation talent across the whole sport, and pushed the boundaries of what is possible. They are head and shoulders above the rest. Bolt may have gone faster than 9.58 as Rudisha may have gone faster than 1:40.9, but nobody else would get close to either mark and that's because of how good those individuals are. 9.7 is still a super elite time, as is 1:42. Bolt and Rudisha are a different standard.
Both records will survive for generations to come.
I also think the 800m is an event that has seen and still enjoys more diversity than the other events. That's what I meant previously. So more chance of finding talents. The other events tend to be dominated by one nation and other nationalities are put off attempting it. Not so with the 800m.
Thanks for backing me up there.
One can never tell how long a record will stand though. I though MJ's 400m would last a bit longer!
800ftw. wrote:
800ftw. wrote:No
Just to elaborate, you think that because WVN is physically capable of running 1200m.in training he has what it takes to be an 800m runner?
You are sorely mistaken. WVN is a pure sprinter. The purest sprint type 400m runner we have ever seen in fact. The least capable of 800m running perhaps next to Johnson.
It would be a miracle to see him break 1:50.
Yes, I think his 200m potential is greater than Johnson's even.
Alberto Juantorena is probably the best example of a quarter-miler that even control 800m.....he didn`t have to run faster at 800 to win the gold in Olympics. Could have run faster.
COACH J.S å ä ö wrote:
Alberto Juantorena is probably the best example of a quarter-miler that even control 800m.....he didn`t have to run faster at 800 to win the gold in Olympics. Could have run faster.
800m running exploded after Juantorena's era. He would never have won 800m gold in later Olympics.
wheeeeeeee wrote:
COACH J.S å ä ö wrote:Alberto Juantorena is probably the best example of a quarter-miler that even control 800m.....he didn`t have to run faster at 800 to win the gold in Olympics. Could have run faster.
800m running exploded after Juantorena's era. He would never have won 800m gold in later Olympics.
His 400m wasn't exactly rocket speed either. I doubt anyone will ever successfully 400m/800m double again. I'd love to see someone try though.
COACH J.S å ä ö wrote:
Alberto Juantorena is probably the best example of a quarter-miler that even control 800m.....he didn`t have to run faster at 800 to win the gold in Olympics. Could have run faster.
Juantorena was NOTHING like WVN. It's comparing oranges to apples. They aren't similar by any metric or stretch of the imagination.
I really hope you aren't serious about all this.
6 x 800 can never be an aerob workout that really gives an extra add to aerob power. And remember ......I am not coaching 400m......I coach 800m up to Ultra. But I think I should be able to coach good even at 400m.....but that is a different story. ;) And I am not Asbel of course......but I know him and he knows who I am threw internet. By the way ....I chatted with him last evening. He told he think Kenya have a new star-runner on 1500m on his way. A young guy that will race tomorrow in Monaco. And it is of course not Canova`s guy Kwemoi he meant.
COACH J.S
wheeeeeeee wrote:
COACH J.S å ä ö wrote:Alberto Juantorena is probably the best example of a quarter-miler that even control 800m.....he didn`t have to run faster at 800 to win the gold in Olympics. Could have run faster.
800m running exploded after Juantorena's era. He would never have won 800m gold in later Olympics.
Don`t be so sure. ;)
wheeeeeeee wrote:
wheeeeeeee wrote:800m running exploded after Juantorena's era. He would never have won 800m gold in later Olympics.
His 400m wasn't exactly rocket speed either. I doubt anyone will ever successfully 400m/800m double again. I'd love to see someone try though.
Don't know about those statements. Juantorena only seriously tried in the 800m in 1976 and smashed the world record in the Olympic final. 1.43.50 would be too good for nearly everybody except Coe and Cruz for nearly a decade. I don't think he ran too many paced world record attempts in his brief 800m career but he was surely capable of sub 1.43. As an Ovett worshipper, I don't mind admitting that had Juantorena not had to have surgery at the end of 77 he could well have successfully defended his title in Moscow.
As for his 400m speed his pb was 44.2, which must have been close to the sea level WR at the time. sub 44 400m at sea level only became a reality in the 80's, coincidentally at exactly the same time sub 10 second 100m suddenly became the norm.
I don't support this idea that all it takes for the 800m WR to be smashed is for an elite 400m sprinter to seriously move up, but Juantorena is by far the best evidence for that argument. He was the best 400m runner in the world, moved up to the 800m almost for fun and took the WR to the next level in the Olympic final.
Coevett wrote:
wheeeeeeee wrote:His 400m wasn't exactly rocket speed either. I doubt anyone will ever successfully 400m/800m double again. I'd love to see someone try though.
Don't know about those statements. Juantorena only seriously tried in the 800m in 1976 and smashed the world record in the Olympic final. 1.43.50 would be too good for nearly everybody except Coe and Cruz for nearly a decade. I don't think he ran too many paced world record attempts in his brief 800m career but he was surely capable of sub 1.43. As an Ovett worshipper, I don't mind admitting that had Juantorena not had to have surgery at the end of 77 he could well have successfully defended his title in Moscow.
As for his 400m speed his pb was 44.2, which must have been close to the sea level WR at the time. sub 44 400m at sea level only became a reality in the 80's, coincidentally at exactly the same time sub 10 second 100m suddenly became the norm.
I don't support this idea that all it takes for the 800m WR to be smashed is for an elite 400m sprinter to seriously move up, but Juantorena is by far the best evidence for that argument. He was the best 400m runner in the world, moved up to the 800m almost for fun and took the WR to the next level in the Olympic final.
Wasn't WVN's 400m wr at near sea level. That's over a second quicker as well.