No. Only if you do 100% of your running slowly. Obviously, you cannot do workouts every single day. When you're not doing workouts you are running slowly to recover. Recovery is just as important as workouts.
No. Only if you do 100% of your running slowly. Obviously, you cannot do workouts every single day. When you're not doing workouts you are running slowly to recover. Recovery is just as important as workouts.
I have a coach who acts similarly, but not nearly as retarded as yours. He thinks that 50mpw is some magic number at which people's legs will crumble into dust.
Your coach is highly retarded. Do not follow his plan this summer. Be especially careful during the school year. He is probably a football-trained "strength coach" whose inspiration for training was a drill sergeant. Once school starts, do no more than 3 "quality" workouts per week. Races count as a quality workout. Always take a recovery day in between every workout (unless you're doubling, which I don't think you are). An example week would be:
M: easy
T: tempo
W: easy
T: hills
F: off or easy
S: easy and gym
S: moderate pace long run
OP, are you in high school or college?
dean wheeler wrote:
OP, are you in high school or college?
Incoming junior in HS
Read The Conditioning of Distance Runners by Tom Osler
No, im saying that you want to put easy runs in between your workouts so you can take full advantage of the days that you do workouts. There is no point in going harder than what is required to recover, and no harm can occur by going easier. As long as you put the time in on your feet it doesn't matter.
Has anybody here every heard of the Van Aaken method? I'm amazed that nobody has mentioned THE chief proponent of long slow distance.
Latsran wrote:
And if he disagrees, show him the most popular training article on letsrun:
http://www.letsrun.com/news/2006/09/wejo-speaks-why-i-sucked-in-college/
Thank you! I was looking for the most in depth real training log/advice and I've found it! 28:0's 10k! Wejo please chime in and provide us with a 15 week lead up to this
If I were your coach, I would tell you:One simple way to think of training is that you use different kinds of training, from top speeds to long slow runs, to improve four things:1) Form -- e.g. short all out sprints with long standing complete recoveries in between2) Speed -- e.g. high speed work bouts with shorter active incomplete recoveries in between3) Stamina -- e.g. tempo runs4) Endurance -- e.g. long runsThere are many other kinds of workouts, which you can do, targeting these same variables:- Lydiard used springing and bounding hill training -- these are like pre-conditioning drills for speed.- Gosta Holmer introduced "fartlek" training, which are like unplanned "interval training" made up as you go. These can be for speed and/or stamina.New runners typically have weak stamina and endurance, as these qualities take longer to develop. My rule of thumb is that it takes 48 hours to recover from intense workouts. If you are doing "hard interval" workouts 3x a week, this leaves little room for developing anything else. And if you do these too long, you risk burning out prematurely, mid-season, before the important races at the end of the season. If you are weak "aerobically" (say 800m is better than 1 mile is better than 2 miles is better than 5K), then you should be using the off-season to improve these weaknesses, when slow race times don't count.Psychologically, the off-season should also be an opportunity for mental recovery, finding your rhythm, and enjoying running for its own sake.Cross-country training needs variety, a variety of speeds, and a variety of terrains. Regarding weekly mileage, increase your mileage if it is low -- typical target increase for high school would be to bring your mileage from 30-40 mpw to 70-75 mpw.The summer goals I would give you:- Find places to train that offers a lot of variety, like a hilly trail runs- Take off your watch- Replace some or all of your interval training with fartlek training- Do this with teammates, to build up team spirit, or camaraderie, or do them alone, as you prefer- Relax and enjoy the off-seasonBut I'm not your coach, so you didn't hear any of this from me.
Jim B wrote:
Okay guys as in "slow runs" he means what you would call easy or recovery runs. He wants us to do hard interval workouts 3 times a week with 2 mile all out runs in between. It seems like any run that doesn't kill yourself is a slow run to him.
I read this pamphlet/book several years ago, it has profiles of guys like Amby Burfoot and Bob Deines who did almost nothing but slow runs. At most, they were 90/10 guys.
KudzuRunner wrote:
Has anybody here every heard of the Van Aaken method? I'm amazed that nobody has mentioned THE chief proponent of long slow distance.
https://www.amazon.com/Van-Aaken-Method-Ernst/dp/0890370702/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1496545188&sr=1-1&keywords=van+aaken+method
Former Sub 14:00 wrote:
Ethanb997 wrote:That's a loaded question. If you really look at the studies or listen to some of the best coaches in the world (Jack Daniels, Alberto Salazar, Mark Wetmore...), your controlled mileage should account for roughly 80% of your training time and should actually be at a reasonable pace. So your easy runs should be somewhere in the neighborhood of 80% of max HR to maximize their actual purpose. I recommend going to Jack Daniels VDOT Calculator and putting in some reasonable times for yourself and see what you get. Thats what Ive done with some of my athletes and have had great success using that tool for easy paces specifically.
The idea that pro runners on the top level run 6:30-7:00 pace on easy runs is simply not true in the vast majority of cases.
Ultimately, your coaches plan SHOULD take things into consideration and you should follow either all of it or none of it realistically.
Hope thats slightly helpful.
-Ethan
Pretty ridiculous. Running "slow" still has benefits. As long as it's not jogging it's fine. I went from 4:29/9:30s in HS to 3:44/13:48 in college off of it. When I took over my current coaching gig the average 5k on the team was 15:03. They didn't run enough and the mileage they did was too fast BECAUSE the old coaching situation used exactly that VDOT calculator. A couple seasons later and the the average was 14:27. Frequently get guys to NCAA regionals, etc. Training changed, but a big factor was slowing down on runs. Some would call it "junk" mileage.
For the record, I have personally ran with 3 separate high level guys who all ran in that range for mileage. One ran 1:44, the other 3:37, and the other was a 62-mid half marathoner. It's not as uncommon as you think.
It's a ridiculous conversation to have on here. So many things go into training that it's completely ludicrous to say I'm wrong based on one team who I have no observation of. I guess I can't argue your experience. Although I don't think a 14:27 team average wins an NCAA meet. Although Wetmore has won quite a few and he disagrees with you, so I guess we're at a stale mate aren't we...
Didn't mean to come off rude, I just don't see how I'm suppose to talk about a team that I haven't coached and people that I don't know. I think that a lot of people assume that slow mileage is better is because when they slow it down they finally feel a little better. The real key in most cases is to bring the mileage down to a manageable level and work it up while feeling fresh.
To the high school coaches on this message:
Quoting Daniels Running Formula 3rd edition - Page 50.
"You will notice in the VDOT tables in Chapter 5 that I list of range of E-pace running speeds, and that range is about 2 to 3 minutes per mile slower than you might be able to race for 1 mile, so it should be clear that E-running is not very stressful.
For those who are accumulating 40 or more miles per week, I suggest Long runs be the lesser of 25% of weekly mileage or 150 minutes, whichever comes first."
Page 51.
" When you consider that the top runners do go for some 20 mile runs and longer, you must realize that they accomplish these runs in about 2 to 2.5 hours, and that is the main reason I think 2.5 hours is long enough, even if it gets a runner a total of 15 miles (24km)."
Anyone high school coaches doing this?
To the high school coaches on this message:
Quoting Daniels Running Formula 3rd edition - Page 50.
"You will notice in the VDOT tables in Chapter 5 that I list of range of E-pace running speeds, and that range is about 2 to 3 minutes per mile slower than you might be able to race for 1 mile, so it should be clear that E-running is not very stressful.
For those who are accumulating 40 or more miles per week, I suggest Long runs be the lesser of 25% of weekly mileage or 150 minutes, whichever comes first."
Page 51.
" When you consider that the top runners do go for some 20 mile runs and longer, you must realize that they accomplish these runs in about 2 to 2.5 hours, and that is the main reason I think 2.5 hours is long enough, even if it gets a runner a total of 15 miles (24km)."
Anyone high school coaches doing this?
To the high school coaches on this topic:
Jack Daniels, I believe, states the pace for a long run is about 2 to 3 minutes per mile slower than you might be able to race for 1 mile,
If I understand it correctly he also believes high school runners can run up to
2 to 2.5 hours for the long run.
Anyone high school coaches doing this?
Bump
Update: we started official practices yesterday and we did 12x400m w/ 60s rest. I went at a moderate effort 7/10 difficulty and my coach called me a lazy whimp for not trying harder like everyone else(still ran the fastest) especially on the last one. We‘re doing a "recovery" run but he wants us to push it hard and take breaks every 2 miles. What to do?
Jim B wrote:
Latsran wrote:And if he disagrees, show him the most popular training article on letsrun:
http://www.letsrun.com/news/2006/09/wejo-speaks-why-i-sucked-in-college/I'm not sure what to say because he sounded very assertive and certain when he said that slow runs make slow runners. He's appears to be a typical American that would never change their opinion regardless of new information. What should I do?
As I read the WEJO piece it struck me that American athletes are largely Satge Managed athletes. You come from grade school coaching, to High school coaching, to College coaching. And at each level you are looking for and expecting something different. Like the coaching is better at each level, and the progress you are making is due to that Guru you signed up with. No wonder you are all neurotic and under achievers given the level of talent in this enormous population where no one really struggles for food or opportunity.
I came up in a different country, where Athletics was the sport. We joined a club. It had nothing to do with schools. Our coaching was relative to our age, and capability, and everyone from neophytes to elites were within sight.
No magic passwords to advance, just performance and hard work.
Running fast is not as complicated as Americans like to believe. Work hard, stay healthy, race hard. Pay attention to your event. And expect that from the age of 12 onward until mid 20's improvement is guaranteed. How much improvement is up to you with or without the assistance or guidance of a coach