What are 400/800 guys doing that 800/1500 guys aren't?

Rudisha's got the 800m WW. To me the question is whether he could get closer to the record in the 400 or the 1500. I tend to think it'd be pretty close, hence I'd call him a 800 specialist. 45.5 is about as far from the 400 WW as a 3:40 is from the 1500m WW. The 45.2 quoted a couple posts ago would be a little closer but it's still not obvious to me that he couldn't run the 1500m equivalent.

Since this conversation is going in a different direction...

TrackBot! PRs Hicham El Guerrouj

PRs for Hicham El Guerrouj:

800 m (Outdoor): 1:47.18 on 2 Jun 1995

1000 m (Outdoor): 2:16.85 on 12 Jul 1995

1000 m (Indoor): 2:20.11+ on 22 Feb 1998

1500 m (Outdoor): 3:26.00    WR on 14 Jul 1998

1500 m (Indoor): 3:31.18    WR on 2 Feb 1997

One Mile (Outdoor): 3:43.13    WR on 7 Jul 1999

One Mile (Indoor): 3:48.45    WR on 12 Feb 1997

2000 m (Outdoor): 4:44.79    WR on 7 Sep 1999

2000 m (Indoor): 5:01.31+ on 23 Feb 2003

3000 m (Outdoor): 7:23.09    NR on 3 Sep 1999

3000 m (Indoor): 7:33.73+    NR on 23 Feb 2003

Two Miles (Indoor): 8:06.61    NR on 23 Feb 2003

5000 m (Outdoor): 12:50.24 on 12 Jun 2003

10 km (Outdoor): 36:00 on 6 Jan 2008

I am a bot. Info: habs.sdf.org/trackbot

Talking about the OP. I suppose it's doable an 4/8 type has access to more speed, which when given the proper endurance and aerobic/anaerobic capacity training would allow for an amazing 800 time. That being said, the half-mile/miler type has slightly stronger slow-twitch muscles which make holding a pace easier than a 4/8 type would, allowing for an amazing 800m time.

4/8 types would run somewhat less mileage (50-60mpw is a LOT for sprints and 800m training) and more focus on intervals and speed based workouts, which provides ample training stimulus for them since that's what their bodies tend towards. A half-mile/miler gets a better stimulus from including more mileage (60-70 and above) and longer repeats with fewer speed sessions.

Anyone who only competes in the 800 in championships is an 800 specialist.

But, given the binary choice of labeling an 800m runner either a 400/800 type or 800/1500 type, which would you label Rudisha?

test2 wrote:

Rudisha's got the 800m WW. To me the question is whether he could get closer to the record in the 400 or the 1500. I tend to think it'd be pretty close, hence I'd call him a 800 specialist. 45.5 is about as far from the 400 WW as a 3:40 is from the 1500m WW. The 45.2 quoted a couple posts ago would be a little closer but it's still not obvious to me that he couldn't run the 1500m equivalent.

world wecord?

Yes but most likely you were a 48-1:44-3:35 type runner. A true speed based/more fast twitch runner would be more like 46-1:44-3:45

I was making the comparison that a 800/1500 type like Murphy does less mileage than a speedier 800m type like Duane Solomon.

Star wrote:

Anyone who only competes in the 800 in championships is an 800 specialist.

But, given the binary choice of labeling an 800m runner either a 400/800 type or 800/1500 type, which would you label Rudisha?

If you force me to assign a binary label then 400/800 given that he's never raced the 15 as far as I can see. But why do we have to associate every 800m runner with a second distance? Not everyone is similarly suited to two distances. I think Rudisha is a prime example of this as he's awesome at 800 but on the world stage would be an also-ran at 400. He isn't a 400/800 guy in the way Coe or Makloufi was/is a 800/1500 guy, that is capable of similar performances at both distances.

What are 400/800 runners doing? They are deluding themselves into thinking they are special and don't need to run mileage and train as middle distance. They are cheating there potential to be a good mid distance runner to be a mediocre "400/800" guy.

There is only 1 kiprop and 99% of you would optimize your potential by running 800/1500. But maybe you are that special 1% so go practice out of blocks instead of doing that tempo run.

cat scratch fever wrote:

Star;

What makes you think Coe was a 400/800 runner? He is not near the top UK rankings for either event in his developmental years.

Ovett was on these lists (48.4 as a u17, and 1.52.5; later a 47.5 as u20 and 1.45.7) He was a relatively early maturer (vis-a-vis Coe anyway).

I would call Coe at this point more a 1500/3000 runner (3.45.2/8.14) as a Junior, who isn't under 1.49.2 for 800m at this point. Seems to me, based on "better training for distance runners", that it was the strength work while at Loughborough that developed (adding 10ibs of muscle to his 5'9" frame - 119 to 129) his speed, both in terms of specific training and strength development. Maturing also helped. This environment provided Coe the opportunity (training with sprinters at times as well) to develop areas which were perhaps not available to him earlier.

You're right. As a teen Coe was a 3000m runner, winning the English Schools 3k title (73 I think), and then a 1500/miler, winning European Junior bronze in 75. At this stage he expected to end up as a 5k guy. It wasn't until the end of 76, when he made a big improvement in his 800 pb, that his father stated something along the lines of, "I think we may have found your event!". It was then, as he was about to go to Loughborough and begin work with George Gandy, that they decided to work on his 800 speed, with a view of improving his ability over 1500m. The 1500 in Moscow was always the end goal from this point.

What a lot of people aren't aware of, unless they read his autobiography, is that when he first tried athletics as a sport after watching the 68 Olympics, he won his district schools title over 60m and the long jump! He went on to run in the County Champs in the sprints (60yds or 100yds, can't recall the exact distance otomy) and came 3rd. So he always had basic natural speed, that wasn't really revisited until years later, c. 78/79.

He was never a 400/800 type, but I think his success over the middle distances was due to him being a 'naturally' very good sprinter, who just happened to join a club where he ran a lot of X- country and distance as a teen with much older and bigger guys.

He is the only man with actual pbs that are sub 47, 1:43 and 3:30.

Sprinting more.

See here:

https://beaconhillstriders.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Alberto-Juantorena-Training-for-400m-800m.pdf

Man this thread challenged a lot of people haha

Alberto Juantorena,El Caballo, is probably one of the best examples of a typical 400/800 guy.

https://www.runnerstribe.com/features/el-caballo-training-alberto-juantorena1/

And Peter Snell a typical 800/1500 "strength" guy with a lot more emphasis on aerobic work.

https://www.runnersworld.com/advanced/a20783376/how-peter-snell-trained-for-a-wr-1-44-3-on-grass-in-1962/

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

Alberto Juantorena,El Caballo, is probably one of the best examples of a typical 400/800 guy.

https://www.runnerstribe.com/features/el-caballo-training-alberto-juantorena1/

And Peter Snell a typical 800/1500 "strength" guy with a lot more emphasis on aerobic work.

https://www.runnersworld.com/advanced/a20783376/how-peter-snell-trained-for-a-wr-1-44-3-on-grass-in-1962/

I am quiet surprised Coach JS that you would dare mention anything positive regarding Peter Snell's training for an 800m runner. IMO, if Snell were 20 years old today, he would not be an elite 1500m runner. If Snell were a young man today, he would focus on 800m training. Snell wouldn't train that differently than the way men like Duane Solomon and Johnny Gray trained. If Snell were a young man today and if Snell were an 800m specialist, I am certain he would be a sub-1:43 man.

I'm surprised JS! wrote:

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

Alberto Juantorena,El Caballo, is probably one of the best examples of a typical 400/800 guy.

https://www.runnerstribe.com/features/el-caballo-training-alberto-juantorena1/

And Peter Snell a typical 800/1500 "strength" guy with a lot more emphasis on aerobic work.

https://www.runnersworld.com/advanced/a20783376/how-peter-snell-trained-for-a-wr-1-44-3-on-grass-in-1962/

I am quiet surprised Coach JS that you would dare mention anything positive regarding Peter Snell's training for an 800m runner. IMO, if Snell were 20 years old today, he would not be an elite 1500m runner. If Snell were a young man today, he would focus on 800m training. Snell wouldn't train that differently than the way men like Duane Solomon and Johnny Gray trained. If Snell were a young man today and if Snell were an 800m specialist, I am certain he would be a sub-1:43 man.

Nice to see that I could surprise you. )) In between these both "extremes" there is of course a lot of other great runners, specialists at 400/ 800 and 800/ 1500.

Reminder, Peter Snell still holds the national record for 800 in New Zealand.

Just a Reminder wrote:

Reminder, Peter Snell still holds the national record for 800 in New Zealand.

Yeah, thats great! Many years..... Did you know that it has been told one of his favorite workouts was 20 x 400m ?