Laura Muir wins her second gold at European Indoors. I really hope she's clean but... :(

Maura Luir wrote:

To ALL of you:

You may have missed the bit where I said I hope she is clean!

I HATE all the doping allegations!

But I know the sport well. Very well.

Can you please explain Laura's sudden progression, which coincides with other Scottish athletes' "explosive" progression?

And yes, I am Scottish and very proud of our athletics' history.

It's just that there is no reasonable explanation for this!

Well then why is it even an issue then you haggis munching igit. Just enjoy then racing and shut up. Athletes are allowed to get better aren't they?

Robo. wrote:

Well then why is it even an issue then you haggis munching igit. Just enjoy then racing and shut up. Athletes are allowed to get better aren't they?

Who are you to tell him what to do? He is allowed and justified to question performances given the widespread corruption and doping that has been proven in track and field. Don't blame the poster for this attitude - blame the people who have been governing and running the sport for the last 40-odd years. The governing bodies of the sport have not yet proven themselves to be trustworthy by any means and people who continue to "just enjoy the racing" may well be continuing to support the corruption.

Middle94 wrote:

bmg wrote:

No 3:55 was ever clean.

I don't usually like to get involved in these discussions, but don't you think that is a bit of a silly claim?

At this point, I think it is a correct claim. Only Dibaba, Ma's army, and East Europeans in the 80s were faster than Muir:

Granted, that may look different in 20 years.

bmg wrote:

At this point, I think it is a correct claim. Only Dibaba, Ma's army, and East Europeans in the 80s were faster than Muir.

I see the implication and it's like saying no-one is capable of being the fastest clean athlete ever. That makes zero sense.

She's only 0.83 seconds faster than Hassan, 1.07 faster than Rowbury and 2.00 faster than Simpson. She's not light years ahead of them. Typically the 3rd lap is when the pace sags, as they all wait for the final lap kick. If those women committed themselves more on the 3rd lap, like Laura did in London & Paris, they could probably get down to 3:54/3:55 as well.

Maura Luir wrote:

And yes, I am Scottish and very proud of our athletics' history.

It's just that there is no reasonable explanation for this!

But Laura is not racing Butchart, who's not racing Hawkins...

I will be happy to know what triggered this! I coach young athletes and I want to know what is happening here so that I can pass it on to them.[/quote]

If you really were a Scottish athletics coach you would have been on the extensive coach education programme they have been running for the last few years where you would not only have met other coaches but had all this explained to you.

If you were a Scottish athletics coach, you would know that Scottish athletes do hard track sessions two or three times a week. As in really hard. As in most athletes couldn't take that kind of training, in that kind of weather, but as in when theres a big group of them and smaller groups split into similar ability levels and encouragement from volunteers and helpers, then you would know how its achieved.

You would know that how in a small country there is a very well organised racing scene, with clear progression from school/club level athletics to district and national level, with cross country and athletics leagues -a lot of racing in a small area.

You would know about the history of athletics in Scotland, and the expertise and dedication that produced athletes like Liz McColgan (and that both Laura Muir and Eilish McColgan come from the same club as her), Tom McKean, Yvonne Murray, and many top marathon runners 20 or so years ago.

But mainly, its the tough, regular training and hard interval/track sessions coupled with tempo runs, excellent coaching and great peer support.

I'd be far more worried about someone who claims to be an athletics coach getting near young athletes who doesn't know this than whether someone with the stride turnover and perfect, non-energy wasting conversion of energy into forward momentum like Laura Muir is clean or not, just because her skin is white and not brown.

And i wonder how they are able to recover from these hard workouts hmmm....

What could they be doing that gives them this superhuman recovery ability that 'most athletes couldn't take'

I wonder.....

Lothian Flyer wrote:

someone with the stride turnover and perfect, non-energy wasting conversion of energy into forward momentum like Laura Muir is clean or not, just because her skin is white and not brown.

Jonny, what's up?

Blood dEPOr wrote:

Lothian Flyer wrote:

If you really were a Scottish athletics coach you would have been on the extensive coach education programme they have been running for the last few years where you would not only have met other coaches but had all this explained to you.

If you were a Scottish athletics coach, you would know that Scottish athletes do hard track sessions two or three times a week. As in really hard. As in most athletes couldn't take that kind of training, in that kind of weather

And i wonder how they are able to recover from these hard workouts hmmm....

What could they be doing that gives them this superhuman recovery ability that 'most athletes couldn't take'

I wonder.....

Scitable:

" Sweeney and his colleagues observed that when a protein called insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1) interacted with the cells on the outside of muscle fibers, it caused the cells to grow. In addition, the research team determined that inserting the gene that encodes IGF-1 into muscle cells produced the same effect.

Sweeney and his colleagues further found that when the muscle fibers of mdx mice were exposed to IGF-1, not only did fibrosis decrease as the mice aged, but muscle mass actually increased by about 40% (Barton et al., 2002). Sweeney told Science News that when the mice became the equivalent of senior citizens (which for mice is about 20 months of age), they were still as strong and fast as they had been when they were young. After these and subsequent studies, the IGF-1-endowed mice became known as "Schwarzenegger mice." While groundbreaking, Sweeney's research is still experimental, and the findings have yet to be tested on DMD patients or other humans"

bmg wrote:

Middle94 wrote:

I don't usually like to get involved in these discussions, but don't you think that is a bit of a silly claim?

At this point, I think it is a correct claim. Only Dibaba, Ma's army, and East Europeans in the 80s were faster than Muir:

http://www.alltime-athletics.com/w_1500ok.htm

Granted, that may look different in 20 years.

I think at this point, currently in the sport, it's really difficult for a clean athlete to not accused of doping.

The sentiment on this website however is a bit more confusing.

I have seen that people seem to regard Kiprop as clean, but he is only 0.6s slower than El G who is definitely a doper according to this site. Makhloufi who is slower than Kiprop, is also a doper apparently.

Likewise Amos and Coe are called dopers, but Rudisha who ran 0.8s faster is not.

Haile is clean, Kipchoge is clean, and Farah who is much slower is not.

This is despite Kenya having a poor doping history, and Algeria or Britain having a less poor history in the middle distance events. None of the names I mentioned had anything serious found out about them.

So I don't think doping claims made by people on this website really have any thought behind them or substance. I've seen the thread about Rowbury where some people are saying she shouldn't be allowed to take Claritin or multivitamins.

For this reason I don't think anyone sane takes anything said on this site seriously, with regards to doping. It's a lively topic here but the quality is poor.

Schwarzenegger mice is the key part of that. Along with 40% more muscle mass.

I watched a documentary on IGF-1 and the mice that were produced were definitely not runners.

They even put them on a mini treadmill and the huge muscle bound mouse was lumbering along.

Sprinting, maybe. Lifting, definitely. Middle and long distance running? Not a chance in hell.

Hold on! You are in as much danger of getting carried away as the BBC commentary team was over the weekend! Muir ran extremely well in both events - and hats off to her in putting in an honest effort when she could almost certainly have won both events in much slower times - but lets be realistic.

1) The heats in both events were hardly very testing for an athlete with her current form and PBs. In the 3K she benefited enormously from being in the second heat. She could "jog" round and qualify as a fastest loser.

2) The competition was, by the highest standards, not terribly good. She went into the 3K knowing that a solid run, by her current standards, would give her the win.

3) Looking ahead to August, I see her as a solid favourite for the 1500 - in a race where the pace is honest. In a very slow affair, like the men's in Rio, I wouldn't have total confidence in her last 300 being quicker than everyone else. In the 5K she is a novice. Has she ever raced a competitive 5K? A fast even pace would probably suit her but in a typical championship race with uneven pace, lots of jostling and bumping ...?

TUE jaded wrote:

Robo. wrote:

Well then why is it even an issue then you haggis munching igit. Just enjoy then racing and shut up. Athletes are allowed to get better aren't they?

Who are you to tell him what to do? He is allowed and justified to question performances given the widespread corruption and doping that has been proven in track and field. Don't blame the poster for this attitude - blame the people who have been governing and running the sport for the last 40-odd years. The governing bodies of the sport have not yet proven themselves to be trustworthy by any means and people who continue to "just enjoy the racing" may well be continuing to support the corruption.

No he is not, what single bit of evidence other than a good performance does he have for that. If you get a promotion at work is it ok to assume you are banging the CEO without any further evidence?

Middle94 wrote:

bmg wrote:

At this point, I think it is a correct claim. Only Dibaba, Ma's army, and East Europeans in the 80s were faster than Muir:

http://www.alltime-athletics.com/w_1500ok.htm

Granted, that may look different in 20 years.

I think at this point, currently in the sport, it's really difficult for a clean athlete to not accused of doping.

The sentiment on this website however is a bit more confusing.

I have seen that people seem to regard Kiprop as clean, but he is only 0.6s slower than El G who is definitely a doper according to this site. Makhloufi who is slower than Kiprop, is also a doper apparently.

.

Kiprop is a freakish talent who won world junior cross while loping out 47 sec 400m and trains out in the open in Kenya. By all accounts he's also far from the most slavishly dedicated to his preparation. El Guerrouj trained obsessively, often in secret. Makhloufi is a big question mark; his emergence and running action reminded everyone far too much of Rashid Ramzi, but he's subsequently been on the circuit consistently and has distanced himself from Jama Aden. Who knows?

"So I don't think doping claims made by people on this website really have any thought behind them or substance. "

I 100% disagree.

I just laugh when people get mad that "we allow" doping talk on our messageboard.

If anyone that is a true fan of the sport was logical, doping is all they would talk about. But it's too depressing to do so we mainly just ignore it.

In recent years, we've seen global champions at 800, 1500 and seteeplechase busted for doping. The current ruler of the 5 and 10k (Farah) was an also ran until he became affiliated with two different coaches (Salazar and Aden) - both of whom have had athletes busted for doping and whom current accusations have been made.

So while I do think some people aren't all that logical, "I think the thought people have is when talking about Muir is, 'If it seems too good to be true, it normally is.'"

He said the doping claims have "no thought or substance". You didn't contradict him.

I believe there are 20 times the number of clean athletes as ones that dope so I don't agree that it's all we should be talking about.

We are going to have to agree to disagree here rojo. There is no reason why some of those people or Muir should be implicated whilst others aren't. Apart from them being good there is just no reason.

To the poster who mentioned Kiprops talent, El G was also an unbelievable talent. When 18 he ran in the world road relays and ran the 3rd 5000m leg in 13:43. At 19 he ran 3:33. This information doesn't disqualify him or Kiprop from being possibly doped. We just don't know.

I'm not sure Salazar is dirty coach either. I haven't been following this closely but from what I've seen, nothing has been brought against him it's just a lot of noise from the media.

So as I said I'll respectfully disagree and will simply enjoy the sport with Muir battling at the top. I hope she one day breaks the 1500m WR.

I sincerely hope that she never breaks the 1500m world record because even I - President of the Laura Muir Fan Club - will be very suspicious,.

Robo. wrote:

TUE jaded wrote:

Who are you to tell him what to do? He is allowed and justified to question performances given the widespread corruption and doping that has been proven in track and field. Don't blame the poster for this attitude - blame the people who have been governing and running the sport for the last 40-odd years. The governing bodies of the sport have not yet proven themselves to be trustworthy by any means and people who continue to "just enjoy the racing" may well be continuing to support the corruption.

No he is not, what single bit of evidence other than a good performance does he have for that. If you get a promotion at work is it ok to assume you are banging the CEO without any further evidence?

The evidence is that 3 Scots jumped to world class at one time last year, and that Barry Fudge had his pic taken with Jama on a track somewhere other than the U.K

Plus Mo coming from mid pack to dominating, then Jama's daughter saying he was a good friend.

Wake up.