For anyone that missed this race from the end of the season:
For anyone that missed this race from the end of the season:
I think more races are won with sit n kicks vs going for it. But more PRs probably come from going for it rather than sit n kicks
Womack wrote:
Polymath wrote:The reason Cheruiyot won was because Ayana wasn't fast enough on the day to run away and stay away, so the runner with the patience and cool head prevailed. You probably call that a "cheap trick", I call it "racing".
Nothing to do with cool head or patience. Cheruiot won becuase she was probably more adjusted to high mileage. She moves on to the marathon now. And she didn't sit and kick. She ran and kicked, unlike Slow-mo.
I think most people don't like those sit and kick tactical slow-moes runners because they are kinda like politicians. They have no principles. They act acording to the environment, according to public opinion. Not according to any inner thing. I have much more respect for a runner that gets last and have a PB than a runner that gets first far far away from his PB. For me the last is the true winner.
Jeff is that you?! You're about as clueless about racing as you are about high school social studies.
Logic wrote:
Womack wrote:Nothing to do with cool head or patience. Cheruiot won becuase she was probably more adjusted to high mileage. She moves on to the marathon now. And she didn't sit and kick. She ran and kicked, unlike Slow-mo.
I think most people don't like those sit and kick tactical slow-moes runners because they are kinda like politicians. They have no principles. They act acording to the environment, according to public opinion. Not according to any inner thing. I have much more respect for a runner that gets last and have a PB than a runner that gets first far far away from his PB. For me the last is the true winner.
Jeff is that you?! You're about as clueless about racing as you are about high school social studies.
Cheruiyot won because she was 'more adjusted to the high mileage' than the 10,000m world record holder?
Womack wrote:
Sit and kick works only for long distance runnuers who have high speed and not that good endurance or overall time (like Slow-Mo) and it works for them only when the runners who have good endurance and better overall time but less speed are stupid enough to play to their hands and run slow until the end. The condition for It is not good tactics of the fast runner, but stupidity of the better time slower kick runner. And you can pull this dirty trick only with stupid runners who don't give it all from the beginning, sometime becuase mentally and physically it's much harder to run a fast steady pace from the beginning. That's what Slow-Mo always does, and lucky for him, the other runners play to his hands all the time. On the other hand, you would never be able to pull cheap tricks like that on Almaz Ayana, she forces all the other runners to a fast pace leaving them no air for the kick.
Not sure how you come to the conclusion that Mo Farah has "not that good endurance.." when he has run 26:46 for 10000m and 59:22 for a half-marathon (as well as finishing third in a hard-run World Half Marathon Championships).
Although he is not a front-runner - and has no reason to be, given that he has much better mile speed than most of his opponents - he is more of a "long-run for home" guy than a "sit and kicker." When he has kicked late - like the last Olympic 5000m - it's because someone else has made a hard kick from the bell and taking them on early would be suicide.
The days when a Nurmi could run the opposition into the ground at even pace have long gone, and these days, it's most unlikely that anyone at the Olympic or World Championship level in a 5000/10000 could set an even pace that would drop the field, or that they could do the extra work of leading and still have the best speed reserve with 400m to go.
"Drafting" is an illusion, distance races are too slow for there to be any physical benefit. On the contrary, when following someone closely you run less efficiently as you have to react to fluctuations in their pace. And sitting in a pack makes you run farther or risk being boxed.
If you see someone closely drafting off someone else who is setting a fast pace, 9 time out of 10 the drafter is faster and could pass and gap the leader if they wanted to.
If they're setting a slow pace, it is academic who is drafting who. Then at the bell the viewer is fooled by simple probability - except for those boxed, several runners are equally likely to have the best kick, and since there is only one leader, of course that's not usually who it is.
frosh wrote:
I think more races are won with sit n kicks vs going for it. But more PRs probably come from going for it rather than sit n kicks
that most races are sit and kick races.
If runners went for it more often, than more races would be won by going for it.
Star wrote:
Centro's race was certainly not going for it at an even pace, which is the comparison in this thread. (See subject line)
He didn't sit on the leader, obviously.
But he sat on the pace and kicked with a huge negative split.
His race was masterful.
I completely agree.
The thread title raises the issue of 'sit and kick' being thrown around to mean 'fast finish' completely disregarding what actually went on in the beginning or middle of the race.
What's more, on this site it seems to be used with some negative connotation as if the elites should just run all races like road cycling time trials.
Running all out for PBs is a feature of the sub elite sport/amateur sport. In the professional sport it is about winning titles and taking scalps.
PBs are secondary. Even in the famous Monaco DL 1500 you heard people like Farah say they were disappointed to finish 4th.
Erm what? wrote:
Logic wrote:Jeff is that you?! You're about as clueless about racing as you are about high school social studies.
Cheruiyot won because she was 'more adjusted to the high mileage' than the 10,000m world record holder?
That guy does not realize that Ayana is highly vulnerable at 5000 meters. Dibaba smoked her in 2015. Ayana's tactic does not work that well at shorter distances, because the kickers can sit on her longer like obiri and Vivian did in Rio
And Vivan stated that had her teammate not panicked in the Rio 10,000 meter race she would have beaten Ayana with patience.
frosh wrote:
I think more races are won with sit n kicks vs going for it. But more PRs probably come from going for it rather than sit n kicks
Agreed.
But that stuff does not work in the half marathon or marathon...that is why kenyans rule the roads. ...they get out in the beginning of the race and stay out.