Marathon on a Track (Surface)- How Much Faster if Any Do You Think it Would Be?

It amazes me that routinely, the loudest opposition towards track distance and ultra-distance running, shouting "boredom," comes from folks who themselves have generally not tried. Many runners are many-time repeat customers to run 24hr races on short loops. Great runners have even run 6 day races on an indoor track (La Rochelle,Fr.).

I don't think there is nearly a large enough sample size to draw any significant conclusion, but the absolute 100K WR is held by Don Ritchie (outdoor track) in 6:10. The road record is 4 minutes slower.

Frequently, for ultra-distance races, the race will switch directions to avoid any overuse issues with constant left turns.

A)Faster: marathon on road with track surface laid on the road.

They could tune the track surface to optimize energy return for the speed and running styles of those with the best chance of breaking two hours. They could optimize the surface for speed, taking into account some need for impact stress and some comfort.

Comfort should not be the primary consideration. The chance to run really fast and go sub 2 hours should outweigh any desire for comfort. Pain and suffering are temporary, but the glory of 1:59 or faster is forever. Only the strong survive.

Runners could wear special shoes lighter than road shoes since the track surface would provide optimal traction, energy return, protection and lesser impact than a road. The best tuned track surface for this event would not be rock hard, but it would be consistent and smooth.

Runners could train on the event surface to dial in efficiency at race pace and adapt their legs to the surface. Obviously not on the streets of Berlin but on tracks set up to exactly duplicate the feel, surface and tuning of what will be on the streets.

With ideal conditions, a big prize purse that awards time not place, well paid pacers, and enough lead time, there are runners that would be sub 2 hours next year in an invitational event on this type of route.

The payout would have to be big enough to pull runners away from big city marathons and their appearance fees. Enough lead time so it is the focus for the year.

An electric pace scooter on the side of the road which moves at 2:00 flat pace for the entire distance. Beat this to the finish and you are rewarded. No, you can not draft off this, its moving off to the side off the track.

Electric pace vehicle with clocks/odometers continuously showing elapsed time, distance covered, distance to the end, estimated finishing time, current pace. Continuous feedback.

This could be marketed like a prize fight (humans against the clock) and would attract worldwide interest, even among non-runners.

B) about the same time as current road marathon: marathon run on a standard 400m track.

Although potentially shorter than a certified road marathon due to the lack of distance added as insurance to certified courses, the turns would be too stressful over the distance at that speed.

Would be an invitation only event with a small group of participants. Crowding not an issue. If you are lapped you need to move out of the way to lane 2-3 or drop out.

Standard indoor track surfaces not optimally tuned for sub 2 hour marathon speed

The psychology of being 30+ yards behind the leader and leaders being out of sight must be considered. Runners would need to stick to the inside lane to minimize the distance run and to draft. With the top 30 people running single file, the guys in the back would feel way behind.

C) slower, marathon run on a standard indoor track

Too many tight turns, not enough space, boredom. Climate control would help some but its going to be a least 3 minutes slower than standard road marathon.

The psychology of being so far behind in lane one, drafting and running the shortest distance, as described above would be worse on an indoor track.

C.1) fastest, marathon run on a specially created indoor track.

One or more mile loop with gentle turns in a large indoor climate controlled facility. No wind. Perfect temperature. Lower humidity. No sun or weather. Great ventilation. No pollutants, pollen, etc.. Perhaps even pressurized to simulate below sea level conditions with more oxygen.

The loop is at least 3-4 lanes wide to allow some pack running and drafting without being too far back.

Specially tuned track surface like the Berlin road surface above. Special shoes and training opportunities. Similar rewards

Instead of a pace scooter you could have pace lights. Similar lead pace/data vehicle.

Continuous feedback clocks and odometers placed along the loop permit those behind the lead pace/data vehicle to get realtime feedback also.

Optional small light wireless earbud allow auditory feedback. Can be programmed to provide any real time instant data or messaging desired. “Estimated finish time 1 59 20”. “Estimated $30,000 at this pace”.

Aid tables available three times per mile on both sides of the track. Get aid anytime if you need it and it has your special bottles or whatever else you want.

Big screen TVs along the way allow all runners to see who is behind them and how far back without turning around to look.

Continuous crowd and coaching support. Enough space between the track and the crowd. No smoking allowed. Crowd is limited to maintain temp and air quality.

Route is measured as a track, without the extra distance added as a certified road course safety factor. This saves over 42 meters in distance over a certified road course, 7+ sec at 2 hour pace.

Somehow the course is manipulated so the runners descend/drop the maximum allowed for record purposes 42 meters over the full distance.

Host a big reward tune up race, half marathon or 10k, in advance to get some fast times on the course/venue and create a buzz that the course and venue are very fast.

Sub 1:59 next fall.

You could set up a figure 8 to defeat the leg issue--and then at the cross-over, it would be like smash-up derby. Win-WinSomeone call the X-games!

Spinny me wrote:

You also want half the distance to turn go clockwise around the track, and the other half to go counterclockwise. That way your legs will stay even.

Excellent thread/analyses.

One Key factor = continuous feedback. At Armory NYC Indoor Marathon last April the leader got their lap times every 200m. If he or she slowed by 0.5 seconds they had instant feedback. In road race, they may not know it until a full mile has gone by. 8X the feedback of a road race enhances focus and consistency.

Second Key Factor = less leg fatigue in last few miles should enable faster finish than road race (where runners experience more microfiber tears).

Not only no wind, but drafting creates "negative wind".

Last year at Armory, the runners reversed direction at 13.1 miles...no one got injured and one of the world record setters raced a half-marathon 8 days later.

Raucous crowds could have an interesting, but hard to measure, impact.

Other thoughts?

Um yeah, first guy that goes sub 2 on any surface will probably be doped to the gills.

Like JK said, a track surface on a road marathon course like Berlin (or how about we say a straight line!)...

We'd be looking at a reduction skeletal muscular stress (key), plus looking at a better energy return (rebound)...this leads to better overall efficiency and less metabolic strain. Probably would wear spikes without any metal in them...or a very thin/flexible road flat.

The other key would be a perfectly flat, uniform surface (not even the slightest hill). Even pacing (also key for the record) is easier because of that of course.

But the difference is likely quite marginal at these speeds...maybe 1-min faster tops I'd guess.

This is my experience running an outdoor track 50K:

I went into the race intending to go through the marathon in 2:30 and break 3:00 for 50K. (My marathon PR was 2:27.) I had stomach problems from the start of the race and went through the marathon at 2:35:5_ and finished the 50K in 3:07.

I ran the entire race by myself and finished the 50K 30 minutes in front of second place. Not having anyone to run with was offset by the fact that being on the track meant that I had instantaneous feedback as to pace. Boredom was not an issue. Although there were only around 25 people in the race, having to go around runners I was laping was a constant annoyance.

The following week I ran a hilly marathon (San Francisco) in 2:35. At that point in my life, I was good at recovering. Still, I think that the recovery from the track was faster than would have been the case if the 50K had been on the road.

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this but could the marathoner on the track be lapped during the competition and still go on to break 2 hours?

run club names wrote:

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this but could the marathoner on the track be lapped during the competition and still go on to break 2 hours?

Maybe if someone like a fool went out at world record 5 pace but then bombed.

I should probably clarify my above post:

For A:

Yes, I think track surface on a marathon-like course (although I think straight line) is for sure fastest and maybe worth 1-min faster compared to the road surface.

For B and C: The turn is going to be gnarly (and more gnarly on the shorter track). It's going to take more work than A and possibly that energy cost is going to offset the hardness of the road as well.

But then we do have the benefit of even lap splits and pacing....so that is a plus. Obviously 400m outdoor (no wind) is faster than 200m indoor. Lap feedback every 400m is still a world better for optimal pacing than once every 1km or 1-mile...lap splits every 200m would probably not be much more of an advantage than splits every 400m.

Overall, I say B and C are still slightly slower than A and the traditional road marathon. If it was a long ultra, I think the 400m outdoor track and be faster though (esp with reversing direction of the turns)...running 50-miles on roads is a lot of impact force.

I'm curious what you guys think about shoe choices for something like the Armory. If the surface is forgiving would spikes be a possibility?

Just thinking about how every one at the end of the pendulum of your feet adds to your time.

Bryn R wrote:

I think it happens fairly frequently - you just need to remember all the best blow-ups.

that was Sexy Shanghai Suzy in last year's Secret Santa: she was rubbery.

surely we're going to see a 2:01.xx if both Bekele and Kipchoge run London again next year.

S. Canaday wrote:

Um yeah, first guy that goes sub 2 on any surface will probably be doped to the gills.

Like JK said, a track surface on a road marathon course like Berlin (or how about we say a straight line!)...

We'd be looking at a reduction skeletal muscular stress (key), plus looking at a better energy return (rebound)...this leads to better overall efficiency and less metabolic strain. Probably would wear spikes without any metal in them...or a very thin/flexible road flat.

The other key would be a perfectly flat, uniform surface (not even the slightest hill). Even pacing (also key for the record) is easier because of that of course.

But the difference is likely quite marginal at these speeds...maybe 1-min faster tops I'd guess.

Too dismissive of the ability for people to improve. Also flexible shoes are the opposite of what. is needed.

How about a marathon where part has a track surface, other part being a normal road? Maybe alternating 5k's with a track surface and a road surface. "Recovery" on the track from that reduced metabolic stress, perhaps.

The other key would be a perfectly flat, uniform surface (not even the slightest hill).

the problem with this may be that that same muscle region is being used every stride, occasional minimal incline would actually recruit slightly different muscles and break the repeated impact. I feel this may actually help in the same way that occasional changes in stride length or incline on the road for 10k makes it more forgiving on the legs after than a track 10000m[quote]An old sage wrote:

Tithe folks who keep recommending a new track surface be designed to "optimize speed", realize that this has already been pursued for years and the result is modern day tracks. If they could be built faster, they would be.

Sage, still anxious for you to hit the track. Desert Solstice, Jon Olson's Riverbank in north CA, Dawn to Dusk to Dawn, and Self Transcendence 24hr (where Jon O first broke 12 for 100mi). Your choice :).

reed wrote:

Tithe folks who keep recommending a new track surface be designed to "optimize speed", realize that this has already been pursued for years and the result is modern day tracks. If they could be built faster, they would be.

Modern day tracks have only been designed to optimize speed for track events. They are generally as hard as possible while still able to take a spike. If you're not going fast enough to need spikes, I don't know why a mondo surface would be of any help.

CAVEAT: I've never run very long distances in track spikes (or ever heard of anyone trying) -- maybe some advantages could in fact be gained there...

Depending on the surface, a compliant straight track could be much faster, but not IAAF legal. They require that marathons be run on asphalt/concrete etc.

Kerdok showed that a compliant treadmill surface reduces energy cost by up to 12%. That would allow well under 2 hours.

http://jap.physiology.org/content/92/2/469

My lab showed that barefoot on a 10mm thick EVA cushioned treadmill uses about 2% less energy than in 200gram shoes on a hard treadmill surface.

You need 3% to go from 2:02:57 to 1:59:59.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24441213

OK, I'll now put on my flameproof lab coat.