Who here has done Maffetone Method (180BPM HR minus your age) for base?

Word on the street from those who know Mark Allen is that he tried for a 2:20 and blew up at 18 miles. See the link which was posted early on.

How does Hadd training differ from Maffetone?

Hadd and Maffetone seem to agree in avoiding any anaerobic training during the base period. The intensities which Hadd's program recommend seem to be a little higher than Maffetone's, but Hadd's program is difficult to discern because it's expressed in a lengthy pdf document which is poorly written.

Sure, I did a winter of slow stuff in 1979 with a ultraguy. It did not work.

This was before Maff.

I never heard of Maff

HRE wrote:

I do and there is no mention of a 2:20 marathon. It's 2:40:04 which was done in an Ironman and may well be as good a performance as a straight 2:20 is but it's not 2:20 and not listed as such. There are 5 and 10 k times of 14:37 and 29:59.

And not to quibble but Vahlensiek's coach was Mafred steffney who himself was coached by van Aaken. Van Aaken coached Liane Winter who held the women's record prior to Vahlensiek.

Ok, so in your opinion, Joe never said that Allen ran 2:20?

It doesn't matter if you are good for a 2:20; it only matters if you ran a 2:20 off of Maff.

So if you have the genetic capacity to run 2:20 and you don't, the Maff training is holding you back. It's counter productive.

fred wrote:

It doesn't matter if you are good for a 2:20; it only matters if you ran a 2:20 off of Maff.

So if you have the genetic capacity to run 2:20 and you don't, the Maff training is holding you back. It's counter productive.

So, MAF doesn't work because Mark Allen, a triathlete and not a marathon racer, used MAF to train for triathlons and won the Ironman World Championship six times and finished top five eleven times, but didn't run a 2:20 marathon. Got it.

Maf this wrote:

fred wrote:

It doesn't matter if you are good for a 2:20; it only matters if you ran a 2:20 off of Maff.

So if you have the genetic capacity to run 2:20 and you don't, the Maff training is holding you back. It's counter productive.

So, MAF doesn't work because Mark Allen, a triathlete and not a marathon racer, used MAF to train for triathlons and won the Ironman World Championship six times and finished top five eleven times, but didn't run a 2:20 marathon. Got it.

I believe Mark Allen won Ironman training several different ways but only one of the methods got any credit.

Maf this wrote:

fred wrote:

It doesn't matter if you are good for a 2:20; it only matters if you ran a 2:20 off of Maff.

So if you have the genetic capacity to run 2:20 and you don't, the Maff training is holding you back. It's counter productive.

So, MAF doesn't work because Mark Allen, a triathlete and not a marathon racer, used MAF to train for triathlons and won the Ironman World Championship six times and finished top five eleven times, but didn't run a 2:20 marathon. Got it.

I'm only responding to the claim of 2:20, and the fact that he blew up in a real marathon.

The Maff stuff is being sold as running training.

Allen lost to Scott six times before training with Maffetone, then went on to win six times using Phil's method to become the most legendary triathlete ever. Mark had made that point many times over.As for fred, either provide your direct experience with the Maff method, or provide the PRs and evidence using your super-secret high speed method, or crawl back into the swamp from which you emerged.

Baffledtone wrote:

[quote]Maf this wrote:

I believe Mark Allen won Ironman training several different ways but only one of the methods got any credit.

I spend all day onnthe couch keeping my HR beliw 180 - my age. I am the fastest maratnoer in the world as a result of this revolutionary traing.

You do need to make sure you stay hydrated. Beer works great.

Gaston Roelants wrote:

Allen lost to Scott six times before training with Maffetone, then went on to win six times using Phil's method to become the most legendary triathlete ever. Mark had made that point many times over.

As for fred, either provide your direct experience with the Maff method, or provide the PRs and evidence using your super-secret high speed method, or crawl back into the swamp from which you emerged.

Baffledtone wrote:

Why don't you. All you have said is that you do 10 times 100 in spikes. That is not Maff.

So I pointed out that you are full of shite, and you get huffy.

[quote]Maf this wrote:

I believe Mark Allen won Ironman training several different ways but only one of the methods got any credit.

Hey Gaston, you got it all wrong.

Here's your namesake .

"Renato Canova RE: TRAINING 10/10/2003 8:00AM - in reply to pumpkin

The first time that I heard about this system (intensity before quantity, for marathon runners) was in 1972, from Belgian Gaston Roelants, one of the greatest runners of the period. Roelants was record holder of steeple, then moved to marathon. At that time, he was already old (35 years), and, when he explained me his program, I also asked him "why speed before endurance ?". His answer was : "For me, running long and slow is very easy, after many years of activity. What I lose in short time is the capacity of running fast. So, for me it's a mistake running many km slowly before developing speed. When I'm able to run 10 times 1000m in 2'48" recovering 1 min, for me is very easy, in short time, running 20 km at 2'58" and full marathon at 3'10"".

Read more:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=308092&page=1#ixzz4Pob5KmYb

"

Couch Potato wrote:

I spend all day onnthe couch keeping my HR beliw 180 - my age. I am the fastest maratnoer in the world as a result of this revolutionary traing.

You do need to make sure you stay hydrated. Beer works great.

If your heartrate is at MAF, which is at 180 - age (not simply below that) while on the couch, you need to get yourself to a doctor immediately. Unless you're 100 years old and you mean you're the fastest centenarian marathoner in the world.

Hahaha

Gaston Roelants: "So, for me it's a mistake running many km slowly before developing speed"

Better change your name to Gaston Maffetone.

Read my posts and you will see that I am not neglecting speed, even in base development. I have more than enough speed right now to run a sub-3:00 marathon. What I lack is the aerobic development to carry that speed all the way through. I was running my daily runs to fast to safely increase my mileage. MAF training focuses on that, without encroaching on my existing speed. My leg turnover has improved dramatically in Maffetone training.Quit commenting on something with which you are unfamiliar and only have your hardened, reptilian opinions.

fred wrote:

Hahaha

Gaston Roelants: "So, for me it's a mistake running many km slowly before developing speed"

Better change your name to Gaston Maffetone.

fred wrote:

Hahaha

Gaston Roelants: "So, for me it's a mistake running many km slowly before developing speed"

Better change your name to Gaston Maffetone.

When you're old (which I am) you lose speed quickly if you don't maintain it, and as time goes on that speed is harder and harder to regain. That renders Maff and Hadd totally useless for me. Maybe you can get away with it when you're young, and maybe you can get away with it if your primary race is 9 hours long like Mark Allen. Otherwise you're screwed.

I guess even the proponents realize this, as Gaston M does strides all the time and others have mentioned the old Joe Henderson method of using races as speedwork.

Whatever you say Gaston. Keep slip sliding away.

For those actually interested in the method, and not just casting it as "running too slow all the time" here is a great podcast, with Maffetone himself, explaining in detail not just the running method, but the overall lifestyle and approach:

http://primalendurance.libsyn.com/page/3/size/25

To the poster above: the greatest problem older runners isn't lack of speed, but injuries and lack of energy. Get those handled, and the speed will return. Healthy legs are fast legs. That I can vouch for personally. I have been among the top 25 in the world in my AG for the 800m and I plan to give it another go this next year, after I build my base wide and deep.