Out of competition testing of African teams

They also never turned up unnanounced to test any of my mates in the USA or UK. Funnily enough... I doubt that anyone of them would contact me to tell me about pissing in a test tube even if they did.

It's great to hear that you are not saying they are on drugs though... makes this whole post kinda redundant.

Ah, yet another ad hominem argument. You can't refute my contention, so I must be stupid and jealous of the Africans. Not so; I'm dissatisfied with the illusion of fairness being put out by the folks at USADA and WADA. Consistent and tranparent testing procedures would render quesitons like mine irrelevant, but at present they are all too relevant.

GoodQuestion's is making a legitimate point. All those who would like to insinuate otherwise simply have to answer his question. So, put up or shut up.

There are thousands of somali, ethiopian, and eritrean teenagers and children in the US. Why are they not dominating the prep ranks if it is genetic? (I admit that an Ethioian kid just broke the freshman 2 mile record, but I am talking in generalities.)

GoodQuestion wrote:

Jab at the African runners? Have I accused them of anything? No, I have simply pointed out that, because they haven't been tested, no one can mount a convincing case for their "cleanness." How about a jab at the glaring inconsistencies created by the current system.

A system under which some athletes stand a good chance of being tested while others don't is bad. A system under which those with the least chance of being tested are those enjoying the highest levels of success is unjustifiable - and that is the system as it now exists. A system where those athletes are managed by agents who have a history of working with doped athletes (see Kenya's line-up this year) and still aren't tested, unacceptable.

what was mentioned was the stereotypical question on these boards directly after the performances by the east africans, I am sure you are aware of this. which agents have a history, please name them and the athlete.

GoodQuestion, you get no genuine answer because your question is ridiculous.

The money for 3rd world athletes to pander $1000's of dollars of drugs does not exist. Most can only feed their families after winning some marathon.

As Renato said, best to look at the Western athletes. Cathal Lombard and Alberto Garcia are 2 Western athletes who only became competitive when they started using drugs.

Drugs are available all over the United States, even in pharmacies.

In Kenya and Ethiopia...no chance.

To repeat, you asked an absurd question and one many Kenyans would likely find offensive both because you have never seen them train and because you lack basic knowledge of the economic realities present in Africa.

As an aside, why would you say something as foolish as "I don't care that you trained with them...tell me about the drug testing?"

You must be stupid and illiterate. IF someone trains with the Kenyans, that means they live with them and observe daily habits. Among these would be included any drug taking.

YOU are the one ignoring MY simple suggestion:

"If you have a 'sincere query,' why haven't you send it to WADA. Have you? Of course you haven't. That's how sincere you are.

When you "sincerely" have a "query," send it to WADA, and Bcc the e-mail to letsrun. I'm sure that they will post it on the front page."

Not working for WADA and not living in Adis, it doesn't seem like anyone here can answer you, does it?

That being the case, if your "sincere query" is so terribly earnest, send it to WADA and show us the text. Why not? Until then, you're calling bullshit on yourself, son. You and everyone here knows it.

Of course, it seems like you'd rather just revel in whatever it is you think you've achieved here. So much for the "sincere query."

To say that drugs are not available to these guys is just not true. When you have a guy like Jos Hermmenes as your agent, anything is possible.

GoodQuestion:

You're telling me that because I do not have access to WADA records, that your arguement is validated.

Basically you're saying that despite the fact that my arguement is supported by at least one case (Ngugi) it is no stronger than your's (with no examples).

Trackhead, GoodQuestion knows his little "sincere query" is anything but. That's why he'll ignore your evidence.

Don't expect him to send that note to WADA, either.

Are you sure I've not asked WADA this question? OK, you're right, but if you'll read my posts you'll see that I started this thread as a spur of the moment idea between eating fruit loops and watching my bracket collapse.

My asking, or not asking, WADA for information on the subject does nothing to preclude me from asking the same or similar questions on this board. I doubt I'll hear from them with a question on Sunday afternoon after World Cross - doubt I'll hear from them at all, but if I do you can rest assured that the answers will be forwarded to Weldon.

In the absence of communiques from WADA, I did take the time to look at USADA's database of athletes tested in the US - quite informative. Almost no testing of the African athletes racing or training in the US. I queried names of guys we know for sure raced in the US in the past 4 years but came up with very few names of guys being tested - and those tests being performed can almost all be accounted for as event testing. Check for yourself here:

http://www.usantidoping.org/what/stats/history.aspx

We know that Tergat, Geb, Evans Rutto, Shadrack Kosgei, Albert Chepkurui (now Hasan Abdallah), Laban Rotich, Abraham Chebii, and many others have run multiple races in the US over the past 4 years, but USADA has no record of any of them having been tested while here. During that same time even WeJo had the testers show up at his door and demand that he fill it.

Until then, my question remains - any out of comp testing for these guys?

Steventm wrote:

There are thousands of somali, ethiopian, and eritrean teenagers and children in the US. Why are they not dominating the prep ranks if it is genetic? (I admit that an Ethioian kid just broke the freshman 2 mile record, but I am talking in generalities.)

Ok, that's a good point......to a point. (and this also to the poster E, who said he agreed with me more or less).

So yes, current environment plays some role in a runner's development, because, like you said, there are East Africans here, training in the US environment, and they are not as dominant as they are back home. Ok, current evironment plays A role.

But if you want East Africans that have moved here as kids and HAVE had success here, there ARE plenty.

Meb K and Abdi A were/are two of our very best distance runners for the US in the last 15 years. Where are they from?? That's right, East Africa.

Abdirizak Mohammed was the first (and with Ritz, one of only two) boys to win Footlocker twice.

Said Ahmed is turning into one of our better milers in the country.

Where are they from?? That's right, East Africa.

And there are many others. So.........if current environment was THE main advantage that the East Africans had, and the main reason the US runners do not do as well, then these people I mention would not have succeeded once they were "out of Africa" and in the US. But they succeeded superbly.

And there are many, many Kenyans and Morrocans who have moved here as adults to live and train, and they have continued to thrive as great runners here. So again, if current environment is the key to success, shouldn't they all fall flat once they get here???

Clearly they are extremely TALENTED, born with genes that make them naturally at/or near the top of the heap. And THAT has to do not with CURRENT environment, but with THE ENVIRONMENT OF ONE'S ANCESTORS. Just because an Ethiopian does not live at altitude NOW, does not mean he did not inherit the genes which allow Ethiopians to have fully oxygenated blood (equal to what a white person has at sea level) even at 10,000+ feet. Take them "out of Africa" and they still have those genes, because their ancestors lived in the highlands for 100,000 years.

So training, current environment and genes (related to historical environment of one's ancestors/family) ALL play roles of course. But deny the talent/genetic factor. It exists plain and simple, and it is silly to try to remove it from the equation.

NO, it's not validated, but neither is it refuted.

The Ngugi incident was years ago, before the advent of WADA, and therefore unrepresentative of the current system.

I can't give "examples" of something I contend didn't happen. My contention, by its very nature, precludes me from providing examples. I have, however, provided data (or links thereto)substantiating my claim there there is only negligible testing of these athletes when they do come to the US.

Here's a fun one for you, search the database for the names of Alene Emere and Asmae Leghzaoui. Both raced extensively in the US, both were later caught for EPO use when tested outside the US (Emere in Japan and Leghzaoui at World XC), and neither appear in the USADA database. They were dirty, raced extensively in the US, pocketed lots of cash, and were never tested while here. I digress from my original question (remember out of comp testing for African athletes), but the testing holes are out there for you to see.

I think you better consider taking a pause and regathering your thoughts. It now sounds distinctly like you are saying that there is an INTERNATIONAL conspiracy to allow the East African athletes to dominate? That's a big jump from saying that the testing mechanisms are not in place to test these athletes while they are in Africa.

AGAIN, I will suggest that you GO THERE. The depth of the talent in Kenya is UNIMAGINABLE to someone that does not go there to experience it. OR perhaps the conspiracy extends into the schools? Maybe the little kids that used to run along side our training group for as long as there little legs could carry them (carrying books and wearing school unforms) up and down the hills were just "juiced" by the secret drink that they were given at school lunch? Then again, there was no "secret drink" so I'm not sure how they juiced them, but I'm sure you have a theory.

ALSO, I had VERY taleneted friends (sub 28 minute 10k guys) that could not get a letter from AK to allow them to travel and compete abroad. Why? Because they didn't have the $$$ to pay the bribe. The point is that these athletes have to overcome many more obstacles than you can imagine... yet u seem to think that the whole world is on their side?

GoodQuestion wrote:

Are you sure I've not asked WADA this question? OK, you're right, but if you'll read my posts you'll see that I started this thread as a spur of the moment idea between eating fruit loops and watching my bracket collapse.

Ahhh.......now THERE'S the explanation we were looking for. "Fruit loops" and college hoops. Sounds to me like you are very mature person who is knows a lot about running................................................................not.

When your teams lost in hoops this year, did you cry about no drug tests for the teams that beat them????

GoodQuestion wrote:

Until then, my question remains - any out of comp testing for these guys?

Hey Good Question, MY questions also "remain" unanswered by you. They were (earlier I wrote) –

"humoring you….

(since OBVIOUSLY your question is implying that A) the East Africans don’t get tested as much, and B) therefore they are on drugs, which explains their dominance)…..

OK, (let’s say) the East Africans don't get tested as much, and a couple of their best guys are on drugs. And???????? Get rid of those guys and THEY STILL KICK EVERYONE IN THE WORLD'S ASSES TEN TIMES OVER IN BOTH MEN'S AND WOMEN'S. So now what's your point???? "

OK, I’ve answered your questions in the way you hope them to be. Now tell ME what does it really prove. Do you REALLY think drugs are THE explanation for the East African dominance ??? I hope you are not THAT stupid.

Doesn't the USADA supervise testing on American athletes?

http://www.usantidoping.org/what/

WHAT WE DO

Since its inception in 2000, USADA has worked to protect the health of athletes by deterring the use of performance-enhancing substances and to ensure that athletes of the United States Olympic Movement compete clean. We believe that our organization's program contains all of the elements of a comprehensive and effective anti-doping program and we continue to work to improve our system to further protect clean athletes.

The purpose of the USADA anti-doping program is to protect all athletes by deterring the use of drugs in the 45 Olympic, Paralympic and Pan American Games sports.

Our programs:

* Balance our objectives of deterrence and preserving sport for clean athletes through education and resources;

* Enforce the necessary regulations of the adjudication system, which includes numerous protections for athletes to ensure that only athletes who are guilty of a doping violation are sanctioned;

* Strive to improve our ability to systematically identify and sanction those athletes and other individuals who are engaged in the effort to gain an advantage over athletes who are competing clean; and

* Fund pioneering research for the detection of doping substances and techniques, and the pursuit of scientific excellence in doping control.

http://www.usantidoping.org/what/management/stats.aspx

http://www.usantidoping.org/what/management/sanctions.aspx

Nope, not suggesting that there is necessarily a proactive conspiracy in the works intentioned to facilitate doping amongst the East Africans, rather that there are glaring inadequacies in the status quo that allow pedantic naysayers like me to raise questions like this and cast shadows of doubt over the whole sport - because, in a day and age when so many have been caught, there is a major hole in the net and that hole happens to rather coincidentally (coincidence I hope)fall over those enjoying the highest level of success in the sport at present.

There should be a conspiracy, one against dopers, and any elementary conspirator would know that he or she should put in place OOC testing in East Africa - if only to justify the OOC testing being done elsewhere.

As for how they dope them, ask Pamela Chepchumba. She should know since she was busted.

While I lived in Kenya for a period of about two years they were tested. I know this because as a wannabee I spent as much time with the runners as I could. I wanted to learn why they were starting to dominate the distances. I learned that hard work is what is paying off. Yes, I am sure that some are drugged, but to think that everyone is useing is untrue. Do we consider every baseball player to be on roids? Lets give credit where due- they outperform us because they outtrain us- not over train.

Good Question,

Please show me the USADA records on Emere and Leghzaoui, because all I can find are records for American athletes.