180 cadence is nonsense. Run natural.

wipethesnotaway wrote:

Ido wrote:

We have a new relegion, a new God. The 180 relegion. Hail 180- you're the true God. Monkeys

What's your point apart from the need to be right?

180 is an average. Your "evidences" from 170 to 190 prove it.

180 vs overstriding @120.

Sure, there must be a conspiracy of fools...keep on diggin'

His point is that we need to run naturally, not average.

back acha wrote:

wipethesnotaway wrote:

What's your point apart from the need to be right?

180 is an average. Your "evidences" from 170 to 190 prove it.

180 vs overstriding @120.

Sure, there must be a conspiracy of fools...keep on diggin'

His point is that we need to run naturally, not average.

Thanks mate, I'm naturally a 180 average. I kinda knew this thread wasn't for me. Natural instinct.

Hey OP, what's your non-average cadence when you run naturally?

You people have a problem in reading. My argument is that the claim that the elites always maintain a high cadence even when easy running and the only thing they change is their stride is a false claim. And I have proven it. I never said anything about avrage. Who cares about avrage. My argument is that all those people that jog and easyrun at 5:00 minutes per km, and force themselves to 180 cadence are fools. Cadence does change acording to your speed!!

Dont shorten your stride just that you can say "I have 180 cadence like the elites". The elites also have above 2m stride! But all those 180 cadence amatures instead of having their natural stride somewhere around 1.4-1.5m shorten it to 1.1-1.2m so they can say "look at me! I have 180 cadence like the pros do".

I glanced over the thread and didn't see much reasonable in here so I'll jump in.

There is a good reason that smart people give advice that simplifies to "speed up your cadence closer to 180". The reason is that most do not "run natural" and when they do, their cadence naturally speeds up to close to 180.

Many to most runners - especially with cadence 165 or lower - stick their feet way out in front of their center of gravity when they land, which causes a bunch of bad things: big heelstrike, shock wave through your leg bones, and slows you down (braking force). In addition, slower cadence means each step hits with harder force.

This overstriding is often caused by running in soft, big, cushioned shoes that allow and encourage overstriding.

Speeding cadence up closer to 180 is associated with lots of other good habits that are more important than the number and boil down to "run natural". The easiest way to learn faster cadence is by sprinkling in a bit of barefoot running and strides, like a couple laps around the football field at the end of easy runs along with 6-8 barefoot strides. I guarantee you won't stride at 160 barefoot, and even if your cadence is slower than 180, you won't overstride and have the other bad habits mentioned above. You can also just try to match your cadence to the number 180 blindly, which doesn't sound fun but is probably still better for you than clunky overstriding.

P.S. look at what the elites do to cause fast cadence and good form -- not the effects of it -- a lot of it is running fast in minimal footwear, i.e. racing flats and spikes. Along with things like drills and strides, which again are often done in minimal footwear.

You didn't read well the thread. If you had, you would see that I have attached many links showing elite runners like Dibaba, Bekele and Kipchoge running easy runs, forefoot off course, with 160-170 cadence. And do not overstride. And these are runners that go up above 190 cadence when running competitive runs at sub 3 min/km.

They do change their cadence according to their speed going down to 160 at easy runs.

Also I have written in the thread that there is a great misunderstanding misguiding about overstriding. Overstriding does not necessarily mean heelstriking, and forefoot does not necessarily mean landing under the center of mass. Furthermore, overstriding and heel striking doesnt not mean whatsoever long striding, in fact over striding doesn't have anything with the length of your stride. All elites have huge strides of above 2m, and they all (except a tiny minority) run forefoot, and they do not overstride. Big stride isn't accomplished by sending your foot forward or by long legs, it is acomplished by good technique, strong push, low body-fat ect. I can see guys over striding and heel striking having very short length of stride. And I see also people heelstriking and having high cadence.

Nice! Have you read The Spinal Engine by Serge Gracovetsky?

As for why it's 180. I said to myself, if we didn't have a number such as 180 brainwashed into us already, how might we actually find a number that makes sense physiologically? Well, of course it would be stupid to not at least observe what the best athletes do. It narrows out a lot of bad conclusions.

The answer I believe is in the contraction times of the muscle fibers:

Soleus (predominant slow twitch) contraction time: 160 milliseconds

Gastroc (predominant fast twitch) contraction time: 100 milliseconds

If we allow for one complete cycle of the muscle contraction/relaxation, from firing to maximum force output and back to the resting state, and assume equal time on the ground as in the air for maximal output:resting efficiency, look what we get:

Slow twitch muscle peak output: 60 / .32 = 187 strides per minute

Fast twitch muscle peak output: 60 / .20 = 300 strides per minute

Elite runners and cyclists focused on endurance tend towards a cadence of 187 when around their threshold.

Elite runners and cyclists focused on the sprints tend towards a cadence of 300 in the shortest of the events, such as the 100m.

There you have it. The golden ratio strikes again. I ain't surprised mfers. 300/187 = phi

Bolt runs the 100 at 41 strides. That's 256 strides/minute- not 300.

This guy is all how 4:45 min/km pace 180 spm is stupid cadence and I'm running at 5:40 min/km with 180. lol

Lord, open your stride. If you're doing 180 cafence at 5:40 min/km, that means each stride is 0.98 m. That's less than 1 m. People, you have been had.

By the way

https://youtu.be/n4ltxWLXe0o

Watch this video. In the first two laps when they ran "slow" around 3 min/km Asbel kiprop is around 166 cadence.

Ido wrote:

Bolt runs the 100 at 41 strides. That's 256 strides/minute- not 300.

His initial strides are well below 300 per minute because one needs more time to go through the range of movement when accelerating out of the blocks up to speed. Cadence changes throughout the race accordingly. However, at peak output and once up to speed in that 50-60 meter portion of the race, we can expect the cadence to reflect the firing rate of the individual.

Of course not everyone's muscles fire at an identical rate. 100 milliseconds could vary 10% either way, and this seems to be related to height when otherwise matched for equal percentages of certain fibers. So maybe Bolt's peak cadence is 270 while the shortest of sprinters is closer to 330.

You could probably test the firing characteristics of your muscles and determine the right cadence for you as an individual.

Ido wrote:

Lord, open your stride. If you're doing 180 cafence at 5:40 min/km, that means each stride is 0.98 m. That's less than 1 m. People, you have been had.

By the way

https://youtu.be/n4ltxWLXe0o

Watch this video. In the first two laps when they ran "slow" around 3 min/km Asbel kiprop is around 166 cadence.

Idk man. It just feel natural for me. I might have exaggerated with 180 at that pace but its usually about 170 for sure.

My cadence increases with speed, same with my straight length.

If I go out for a jog with friends (5:40-6:00 min/km) I usually don't care about it. Garmin says stride length is about 1 meter.

If I do a tempo (4:00 min/km) I am at 175 or 180 depending on how I feel. If I'm tired I'll have a slower cadence.

I'm always hit 180 if I do work at under 4:00 min/km though. Just feels natural and easier than to take longer strides for me. I used to run at 157 until "I've been had" and worked a bit on it and now I can only run at that cadence if I'm litteraly walking at 7 min/km

I'm not really a fast guy (19 min ish 5k) but I could swear my body feels much better after I made this change. Vertical oscillation seems to be smaller so maybe that makes the impact not so big on bones, joints etc.

And to be honest I don't think elites care that much. It's really hard to not be around 180 cadence if you run at 3:30 or faster. I just checked the 5k national champ where I live and he has 166 at 4:11 min/km which I think it's an easy run for him and on a trail race he did on Sunday he had 177 at 3:30. I bet at 3:00 he is around 180 or more.

Throughout this thread the OP has give only opinion and anecdote. Is there any research to support deviation from 180?

Hi Ido,

Might I suggest that if you want a better discussion you might try to be less nasty?

Cheers.

one misconception in this thread is everyone is saying 180 is most efficient. Daniels has clarified this many times - all he said, was cadence for elites doing any kind of running was 'at least' 180. Not necessarily all at 180

I love how the poster who can't articulate a concise point is lambasting others for their comprehension.

And Daniels (whoever he is) was wrong. Because as I have proven by attaching in this thread, many elites doing easy runs and even slow competitive runs in 160-170 cadence. Daniels didn't do much of a research. All he had to do was watch a few youtube videos or go to the elites and see them easy running. But he had already made his thesis and didn't let the facts and truth confuse him, and many guys still follow his made up thesis like a herd. I can see it here in this thread. I attach videos with elites running at 160-170 cadence, and people still go on with that 180 claim that elites in all kinds of training don't go sub 180. People saying "is there a research for deviation from 180" like 180 is a godgiven fact. I don't need to write any research, all I have to do is attach some elites running sub 180, and I did it. But people here keep on going with this Daniels' 180 nonsense, because it has become a religion for them, or because they are so hooked on it, that they can't addmit they were wrong. Good luck jogging in 180 cadence