DoritosLocosTacos wrote:
This, yes Ryun could've ran faster, yet he's still not just on Coe's level
True enough. He was well beyond Coe's level.
Or did you mean to say, ". . . he's still just not on Coe's level"?
DoritosLocosTacos wrote:
This, yes Ryun could've ran faster, yet he's still not just on Coe's level
True enough. He was well beyond Coe's level.
Or did you mean to say, ". . . he's still just not on Coe's level"?
We all recognize, and Coe has admitted, that over 800m, Ryun would defeat Coe, as Coe was the ultimate choker over 800m.
Over 1500m, Coe was a masterful tactician and Ryun was not.
In terms of pure talent, Jim Ryun wins hands down. Ryun was once in a lifetime, Coe was bettered by several other Brits and kids like Alan Webb.
8FE wrote:
We all recognize, and Coe has admitted, that over 800m, Ryun would defeat Coe, as Coe was the ultimate choker over 800m.
Over 1500m, Coe was a masterful tactician and Ryun was not.
In terms of pure talent, Jim Ryun wins hands down. Ryun was once in a lifetime, Coe was bettered by several other Brits and kids like Alan Webb.
Please remind us how many titles did Ryun actually win? ........Zilch.
One Olympic silver from 3 Olympics.
Coe more than matched that over 800 with 2 Olympic silvers, not to mention European indoor and outdoor golds, a World Cup gold and 2 European Cup golds.
How does that make Coe a choker and Ryun not?
Coe never admitted Ryun could beat him over 800. That's just made up.
Being a prodigious talent as a teen does not mean more talented. Talent is what you produce at your best, because everyone matures and progresses at different rates.
Coe still has the best combined points for 800 and 1500m, some 30 years after he ran them. That's unheard of.
Ryun's combined pb' wouldn't have even put him in the all time top 20 in 1997.
Coe's career achievements are vastly superior than Ryun's.
Speed in the 60's wrote:
Ryun's fastest 800m was 1:44.3 on a synthetic track not dirt.
It was a semi-synthetic grasstex surface. Not particularly fast. You also left out the fact that it was a negative split and he had run a heat 2 hours or so before.
Speed in the 60's wrote:
IIRC his next best was 1:45.1 also on synthetic. He never broke 1:46 ever in his career.
He ran 1:45.1 but never broke 1:46? What?
Speed in the 60's wrote:
He was significantly faster over 400 than Ryun.
Dusseldorf suggests otherwise.
Speed in the 60's wrote:
Coe faced many great milers, Walker, Bayi, Scott, Cram, Ovett, Bile,..
Could they run 3:34.9 at 7400 feet with two 1500s, three 5ks, and two 10ks in their legs?
Speed in the 60's wrote:
Coe was 3 secs faster over 1500 and 4 secs faster over a mile.
He also ran on a synthetic track with rabbits and far better pacing.
Rudisha is back! wrote:
There is absolutely no evidence that either doped, but looking at each athlete's career trajectory, Ryun looks more likely to have doped.
Great as a junior.
Never the same after mono, which just happened to be the same year as steroids were banned in sport.
Inconsistent form thereafter for no obvious reason. Great one week, also ran the next.
Why do you think that suggests doping? Nothing about what you wrote entails an increased likelihood that one doped.
Rudisha is back! wrote:
Coe had a long career, lots of peaks, slow deterioration as he moved into 30's, outspoken about peds and initiated tougher laws to combat dopers.
Being outspoken about drugs means nothing. And how anyone can look at Coe as someone tough on doping after this past year is beyond me.
ISBN wrote:
Please remind us how many titles did Ryun actually win? ........Zilch.
One Olympic silver from 3 Olympics.
How many titles did Ron Clark win? The Olympics are the most overrated competition in the sport. Something Seb has echoed in the past:
"The Games are littered with people who had one good day and were never heard of or seen again."
ISBN wrote:
not to mention European indoor and outdoor golds, a World Cup gold and 2 European Cup golds.
How many of those competitions were open to Jim? .......Zilch.
ISBN wrote:
Being a prodigious talent as a teen does not mean more talented. Talent is what you produce at your best, because everyone matures and progresses at different rates.
Coe still has the best combined points for 800 and 1500m, some 30 years after he ran them. That's unheard of.
Combined points? Who gives a sh*t? Do they give out medals for that?
If Noah Ngeny had run an 800 instead of a 1000 when he broke Coe's world record, he would have a superior total.
If you want to play this ludicrous game of hypothetical times then I will do it as well.
When Coe ran 1.41.73 he wasn't peaking or even aiming for the world record, and had to run round the leader on the third bend which lost him time. Therefore if he had peaked, hadn't lost time from overtaking, and had perfect weather conditions and superior modern mondo tracks he could easily have run low 1.40s
When he was in the shape of his life for 1500 just after the LA olympics James Robinson completely screwed up the pacing on his world record attempt, running a 55 then a 60. If he had done his job properly Coe would have easily run 3.28 or even 3.27. With superior tracks and perfect weather that could become 3.26.
Doesn't matter how you put it, Coe was by far the superior athlete
Seriously??? wrote:
If you want to play this ludicrous game of hypothetical times then I will do it as well.
When Coe ran 1.41.73 he wasn't peaking or even aiming for the world record, and had to run round the leader on the third bend which lost him time. Therefore if he had peaked, hadn't lost time from overtaking, and had perfect weather conditions and superior modern mondo tracks he could easily have run low 1.40s
When he was in the shape of his life for 1500 just after the LA olympics James Robinson completely screwed up the pacing on his world record attempt, running a 55 then a 60. If he had done his job properly Coe would have easily run 3.28 or even 3.27. With superior tracks and perfect weather that could become 3.26.
Doesn't matter how you put it, Coe was by far the superior athlete
Great point. Agreed.
And I thought Ventolin had been banned from these boards!?
Coe was a big meet performer with two Olympic golds in the 1500m and two silvers in the 800m.
Ryun was a big meet choker with only one Olympic silver in the 1500m. He couldn't even make the US team in the 800m.
Ryun has a long list of excuses for poor performances in the Olympics. Coe has a long list of superlatives for his spectacular Olympic performances.
In realtime wrote:
Coe has a long list of superlatives for his spectacular Olympic performances.
Blood bags!!
Seriously??? wrote:
If you want to play this ludicrous game of hypothetical times then I will do it as well.
When Coe ran 1.41.73 he wasn't peaking or even aiming for the world record, and had to run round the leader on the third bend which lost him time. Therefore if he had peaked, hadn't lost time from overtaking, and had perfect weather conditions and superior modern mondo tracks he could easily have run low 1.40s
When he was in the shape of his life for 1500 just after the LA olympics James Robinson completely screwed up the pacing on his world record attempt, running a 55 then a 60. If he had done his job properly Coe would have easily run 3.28 or even 3.27. With superior tracks and perfect weather that could become 3.26.
Doesn't matter how you put it, Coe was by far the superior athlete
1) Coe ran eight more 800s after his 1:41.73 and never managed to break 1:45. He was clearly peaked.
2) The weather was fine.
3) He didn't have to run particularly wide. He lost maybe two tenths.
4) The tracks today are not faster than the tracks of the '80s.
5) No, he was never running low 1:40, nor was he ever running low 1:41.
6) Coe was never "easily" running 3:28 or 3:27.
7) No, that doesn't become 3:26 with mondo tracks.
8) No, Coe was not "by far" the superior athlete. At best, you could argue he might beat Ryun. And I don't think he would. But to claim he was "by far" the better athlete exposes you as lacking any semblance of objectivity.
In the 800 Coe by short step. In the 1500 Ryun by a short step.
in terre haute ?
or dusseldorf ?
Leo Manzano has matched Ryun's times and Olympic medals.
No one has matched Coe's middle distance times nor his Olympic middle distance medal haul.
The facts cold wrote:
Leo Manzano has matched Ryun's times and Olympic medals.
No one has matched Coe's middle distance times nor his Olympic middle distance medal haul.
Cute factoid but Ryun would still win
In a championship Coe!
If born in same era I would put them close over 1500m/mile Coe ahead on 800m.
Can't even believe this is a thread.
1:44.9 converts to 1:44.3 (800m)
3:51.1 converts to 3:34.0 (1500m)
Coe: 1:41.7, 3:29.77
Just no contest.
The difference in surfaces is not worth 4.3 seconds over 1500m and certainly not worth 2.6 seconds over 800m. Coe is a head height above Ryun.
Some people here are just so obsessed over american high school phenoms that they lose sight of reality.
Maybe Jim Ryun could have run 1:41 if he had been trained better and had a longer career. Maybe Coe could have run 1:40 if he could have raced Rudisha. We don't know.
Jim Ryun peaked when he was young.
End of discussion.
Ryun was poorly coached and peaked at the wrong time).
Coe was superbly coached and peaked at the right time (Olympics).
Interesting, if ultimately meaningless, speculation! there can be no definitive answer, any attempt to work this one out "scientifically" is bogus.
For what it's worth, I feel that Ryun in 1966 &'67 came as close to being unbeatable as any miler since Elliott in his prime.
Ryun's splits in his 3:33.1, his demolition of Norpoth and Tummler and his 3:51.1 WR (leading every step of the way) are all awesome performances
Ah, the curse of the American miler, so much talent and and equal amount of unfulfilled potential.
Ryun, Webb, Scott, Spivey, Falcon, etc.