Long Run for 800m.

Stop spewing bs wrote:

I wasn't referring to minor meets, or getting 'qualifications'. When was the last time a 1.50 runner won the nationals, or world youths? It is a decent time, but as I said before, won't win you anything big over the age of 16

Fair enough, I don't consider New Balance Nationals to be a major event either way.

formerD1 wrote:

Also, I quit the 800m in college because I wanted to up my mileage. I ran with the XC team instead of doing 800m training year-round, and guess what? By the time indoor season came around and I tried to do some 200m repeats to test my speed, bam nothing. Speed was gone. In HS I could crank out 23s in my sleep. In the fall after XC season I would struggle to break 25s, and then I knew my 800m career was over.

Woah! You stopped doing speed work then lost your speed! How the hell does that work?

No one here is claiming you should stop doing speed work, they are saying long runs are beneficial. Long runs don't prevent you doing fast stuff as well

Have a little bit of an anger problem?

Stop spewing bs wrote:

Woah! You stopped doing speed work then lost your speed! How the hell does that work?

No one here is claiming you should stop doing speed work, they are saying long runs are beneficial. Long runs don't prevent you doing fast stuff as well

Explain to me like I'm 12. How do you manage to do high quality speed workouts + drills each day + weights each day and then somewhere you decide to add in enough mileage to sustain a 10+ mile long run. It's not as simple as "oh let's skip 1 workout and add 1 long run". You need the mileage base to sustain a long run effort. A guy doing 20-30mpw is going to suffer terribly if he attempts a 10+ miler. To even consider doing a long run of over 10 miles, you need at minimum 40mpw, probably more like 50mpw. That's a lot of time spent running slowly for an 800m runner.

Stop spewing bs wrote:

formerD1 wrote:

Also, I quit the 800m in college because I wanted to up my mileage. I ran with the XC team instead of doing 800m training year-round, and guess what? By the time indoor season came around and I tried to do some 200m repeats to test my speed, bam nothing. Speed was gone. In HS I could crank out 23s in my sleep. In the fall after XC season I would struggle to break 25s, and then I knew my 800m career was over.

Woah! You stopped doing speed work then lost your speed! How the hell does that work?

No one here is claiming you should stop doing speed work, they are saying long runs are beneficial. Long runs don't prevent you doing fast stuff as well

This. Speed is ruined by neglecting speed work, not by adding miles. Ramping your long run up to 13 miles while keeping the rest of your program constant is not going to turn you into an ultra runner.

By formerD1's logic, just about every 1500m guy should have crap speed.

bloodboil wrote:

Have a little bit of an anger problem?

No, I'm just arrogant + condescending, but thanks.

don't have to neglect speed wrote:

This. Speed is ruined by neglecting speed work, not by adding miles. Ramping your long run up to 13 miles while keeping the rest of your program constant is not going to turn you into an ultra runner.

By formerD1's logic, just about every 1500m guy should have crap speed.

Again, how do you ramp up to a 13 mile run without sacrificing the speed element of your program?

The "long run" does not exist in a vacuum. It requires a corresponding increase in your weekly mileage for you to be able to safely handle the long run and not get completely wiped-out for days afterwards.

It's not just the long run that hurts, it's the whole gearing your body in preparation of the long run that hurts even more.

"Ramp up to a 13 mile run"?

You are acting like it takes months to get up to that distance. Just run for 15 minutes more one week, and in 3-4 weeks add another 15 minutes.

Then you're there.

It's not that hard and you won't get slower.

No doubt there are athletes that thrive off of a low mileage high intensity workout regimen. I'm willing to bet even those College Athletes running mid-1:40s are putting in some type of mileage in the off season.

formerD1 wrote:

Explain to me like I'm 12. How do you manage to do high quality speed workouts + drills each day + weights each day and then somewhere you decide to add in enough mileage to sustain a 10+ mile long run. It's not as simple as "oh let's skip 1 workout and add 1 long run". You need the mileage base to sustain a long run effort. A guy doing 20-30mpw is going to suffer terribly if he attempts a 10+ miler. To even consider doing a long run of over 10 miles, you need at minimum 40mpw, probably more like 50mpw. That's a lot of time spent running slowly for an 800m runner.

A high level 800m runner would typically train 13 times a week. A typical week in mid season would probably include 2 weight sessions, 2 interval sessions and 2 tempo runs. Drills are usually combined with an easy 30 minute run and that would be done ~4 times a week. That adds up to 4 easy runs, 2 tempo runs, 2 recovery runs and 1 long run. Thats 9 aerobic runs, without neglecting speed, and would be perfectly doable for a high level athlete. Including the warm up/warm downs for the harder sessions as well and this could easily add up to 80mpw

A couple of things:

1) Coe did not lose to Ovett because he upped his mileage. He lost because he ran a tactically poor race. Ovett ran a tactically good race. Coe was the better 800 runner, but Ovett was close enough that on any given good day and with the right tactics he could be Seb. On that day he did.

2) You can build speed and you can build endurance, but only so much in both cases. You can not turn Ryan Hall into a 800 runner, but he could have got been a lot better than he ever ran in the 400/800 if he worked on that. Maybe good enough to have been a D1 guy. Likewise, you can't turn Johnny Gray into a marathoner, though you could maximize his endurance. In the middle can get even more benefit. Ovett started out as a sprinter, and ran like a distance runner. He had good range all the way up to 5k. Seb Coe started as a 3k runner, and maximized he speed. Both approaches worked. It's questionable if Ovett would have been as good in the 1500 if he trained like Coe, but he might have been better at the 400/800. Seb probably could have run a pretty good 5k (maybe even 10k) if he trained like Ovett, but his 800 (and probably even 1500) would have suffered.

There is no ONE way. We are all different and respond to different types of training. Some 800 guys would respond very well to a long run of 10-13 miles. Other's not at all. The trick is finding out what works for you.

You are correct, though. One needs to build up to 13 miles. Over years. If you are currently doing 6, then you up it to 7. Once you figure out if you responded well to that, then 8. Then 9. Then 10. This can take 4-12 weeks at each step. So it could take years. Stop when you get no benefits, or if the negatives out weigh the positives.

So, the ideal long run for 800 runners: 6-10 (maybe up to 14 for a few).

Schwa? wrote:

"Ramp up to a 13 mile run"?

You are acting like it takes months to get up to that distance. Just run for 15 minutes more one week, and in 3-4 weeks add another 15 minutes.

Then you're there.

It's not that hard and you won't get slower.

No, it could takes years.

15 minutes is too much for a 800 guy to add. More like 5-10 max, or maybe a mile (7-8 minutes). There's not need to rush it either. You can determine along the way if it's good, bad, or indifferent.

If it's good, then add more. If not, don't.

Also, you probably don't want to add too much during season. This is something you can to try out of season.

okay, let me spread some subjectively educated opinions here hahah.

i think some people are missing the point, we might not see elites doing many long runs because they've been running since 6th grade for some of them. 90% of them since HS i'm sure.

what's my point? well, i'm sure they've logged enough miles in their lifetimes that they have no need for a long run (for an 800m race at least) anymore.

An elite 800m runner is trying to get his type IIA fibers to last a long time - this could be moderately improved through a long run (better so in intervals/progression type runs like stated above or a baylor-type workout)

just think, we all know those talented football dudes that throw down 52.xx 400s with little training and eat sh*t in an 800m race.

A long run is necessary at the start of an athletes career, once they've established a certain amount of endurance - a long run won't help them much anymore. And endurance at that point should just be maintained(it's just like how we train for our 5ks... PERIODIZATION PEOPLE) (which a progression run would mimic pretty well i think - maintaining)

Also - let's not forget the overwhelming amount of evidence we have that tells us at a certain point an athlete will recruit fast twitch muscles on a long run when the slow twitch ones have been exhausted (and if you're a sprinter this will happen more quickly - which means they will need a shorter long run anyways, so ya... science.)

secondly, we have type 11B fibers, the fastest ones... which are important for 800m runners because if they are running 13.00s pace per 100m in an 800m and their top speed is a 11.25 quarter, that 13.00 will feel relaxed and smooth for them which is pretty damn important.

So summery:

Start of career - long run + top speed work (30s, 150s smooth, form work, lifting) (a runner won't peak by doing flying 30s with full rest, if you don't rest fully then you start working different energy systems.. which is why some people peak early... just get full recovery)

end/middle off career - work on getting your type 11A fibers to last as long as possible... (hard 200s/300s/400s... some over distance work as well)

feel free to disagree with me. also i'm not gonna proof read this because i don't care enough.

depending on your training age/natural endurance/ what YOU think you need... do a long run, or don't.

From another thread: Johnny Gray's training. American record holder and definitely a speed guy.

This is from an article in "Track Technique (now "Track Coach")" years ago:

All distances in yards.

Non-Competitive Season:

M. 6 miles easy, 16 x 220 (3 easy then 1 good speed-repeat); 6 x 150 good speed; 10 x 110 easy.

T. 6 miles easy, 8 x 440 with 220 jog (3 easy then 1 good speed-repeat); 4 x 220 good speed; 10 x 110 easy.

W. 12 miles easy

Th. 6 miles alternating easy and fresh.

F. 8 miles easy.

S. 10 miles alternation 2 easy and 2 fresh.

S. 8 miles easy.

Competitive Season:

M. Mile warm up; 12 x 110 alternating easy and good speed; 8 x 440 (2 good speed, 1 half speed, 1 lap jog-repeat); 8 x 220 alternating good speed and fresh; 2 miles easy, 2 x 660 (53.0 at 440); 10 x 110 easy.

T. 2 miles easy; 12 x 110; 4 x 880 (1:53); 2 x 440 easy; 12 x 150 (1 easy, 1 good speed, 1 easy, 1 half speed-repeat); 10 x 110 easy.

W. 7 miles easy; 1 x 880 (1:49).

Th. 4 miles easy; 12 x 110 alternating easy and good speed; 8 x 220 with 110 jog in between alternating 1 good speed and 1 hard; 6 x 150 alternating easy and fresh; 10 x 110 easy.

F. 6 miles easy.

S. Race.

S. Rest

Like Joe Douglas, Johnny Gray trained in the Igloi style. Never high mileage--60 miles per week or so maximum--and a lot of intervals, but many of the intervals were not balls-to-the-wall hard. Maybe 50 aerobic miles per week in the winter and 20 aerobic miles per week in peak season: Everything else was intervals.

50-60 miles in season is ample for a 800m runner. This thread is turning into a "back in my day" humble brag.

A lot of talented 800m runners ramp up to higher mileage during Cross Country season in college. It's beneficial for Cross Country races and building endurance for a speed focused track season.

Like it's been said its different for every individual. Prior high school training, athlete mentality, and genetics play a huge role in training each athlete.

In my experience I've come across a lot of coaches that prefer low mileage/quality workouts. This works well for your studs, but for your try hards it's not enough. Plenty of elites are try hards, very few are Rudisha.

There's also plenty of 1:50 D1 runners. That doesn't even win D3.

If long slow runs kill speed, would doing 100m strides after a long run help reduce this loss?

Bonkers wrote:

There is no perfect formula for training. Some 800 guys do a ton of speed development, some guys train more like a distance runner with a few quick workouts. Different people respond better to different kinds of training. There is no one size fits all.

That is the truest thing said on this thread.

Former D1 did talk about a difference for speed type 800 runners. I found with one I trained, the sweet spot was doing 5-7 x 1km on the 5 minutes, at theoretical 7-8km speed - sort of half way in between 5 and 10km speed. He'd do them in 3.30-3.40, so get 1.20-1.30 rest.

I also found shortish tempos more benefit on light or recovery days than longer slower runs. Remember, an 800 goes for less than 2 minutes. What good is your ability to run 90 minutes fast? Sure there are Lydiardites who push long mileage for everyone, but Snell was so good he would have thrived off any program.

runner1738 wrote:

Aspiration wrote:

What should a long run for 800 be? 5, 6, 7, 8, ?

At what point does it become too much meaning higher than this is not beneficial for the 800m?

And should you run it like a marathon pace or make it a semi tempo or just slow?

How long do you think guys like Rudisha, Amos , kaki, and Simmonds run for their long run?

Thanks a lot guys.

SYMMONDS, learn to spell. IDIOT.

KNOCK SYMMONDS, to be specific. Also known as Nick "The Nozzle" Symmonds and Spanky Symmonds.

On the contrary, speed can be built; Sebastian Coe is a great example.