Hill and BTC should have been DQ'd for pacesetting

LennyZ wrote:

Regardless of the rules and how we interpret them... the rules should be changed to allow almost any behavior that does not involve doping, cutting the course, or physically blocking or impeding other runners.

It would be great if teams brought a contingent to try to control the pace, put in surges and help their front runner. Otherwise, let's just have individual time trials, or keep everyone in their own lanes.

This is what makes a race exciting. The 3k was certainly exciting, more than usual I would say.

Entertaining for the spectators doesn't equal what's fair for all the competitors. Now I'm not saying it has to be fair, because it's not fair from the start that some people get to train with NOP or BTC anyway. That being said, if I were Chelimo, Lagat, Hasaan, Heath or Jenkins I might not like the rules. All these guys would have had a shot at the win or at least making the team had BTC not been able to sacrifice lambs to keep a fast pace.

I've seen races where Kenyans and/or Ethipians use team tactics and as long as all their people are in the race until the real kicking starts (whether that is 200 out or 900 out) I think it's totally fine and an honest effort. However if they would have taken it out at say 12:48 or 26:50 pace only to walk off the track or even bomb out after 50-70% of the way I think that is lame.

It would have been cool if BTC was pressing strong at a pace they could actually handle for 2600-2800 meters to see if they could drop others and dwindle the field down. That would have been both impressive and badass. But this was different. It felt a bit artificial.

I'll add that I can't get dq'd or arrested for cutting a rotten cheese stinker while standing on a crowded subway car, but I doubt anyone would appreciate me doing it.

Keep in mind that if all teams were to deploy these tactics, they would need to get their runners through the heats and into the finals. That would keep a team from just putting a half dozen dudes in the race that could mess with the pace and just quit part way through.

I like the anything goes style. It would keep our fastest guys on their toes and make them really work for a win every time.

Schumacher group blew up like a bunch of high school pansies with only Hill holding on, and barely at that. They ran like chumps.

honest effort wrote:

I'll add that I can't get dq'd or arrested for cutting a rotten cheese stinker while standing on a crowded subway car, but I doubt anyone would appreciate me doing it.

Probably the best summary of the situation. I wonder if Garrett Heath knew about this pacing since his bro is in BTC. If he didn't i would be surprised.

Not sure why people care. It was more entertaining to watch a fast 7:38 race as apposed to watching a 7:50 race that only starts in the last 600 or 800 meters. Funny how a lot of the time people complain about slow championship finals, yet when we get a nice and fast race there's still someone complaining? Come one...maybe you're butthurt that someone you like didn't make the team that maybe could have in a slow/tactical affair?

This race was awesome to watch, and I can't wait to see Hill and Chelimo be really competitive next weekend. Hill definitely has a medal shot, and I wouldn't discount Chelimo either with that finish he put on.

ijenns318 wrote:

Not sure why people care. It was more entertaining to watch a fast 7:38 race as apposed to watching a 7:50 race that only starts in the last 600 or 800 meters. Funny how a lot of the time people complain about slow championship finals, yet when we get a nice and fast race there's still someone complaining? Come one...maybe you're butthurt that someone you like didn't make the team that maybe could have in a slow/tactical affair?

This race was awesome to watch, and I can't wait to see Hill and Chelimo be really competitive next weekend. Hill definitely has a medal shot, and I wouldn't discount Chelimo either with that finish he put on.

Agreed. This race was better than most sit and kick races. And to watch Galen struggle and ultimately fail was great to watch :)

let's let the BTC have their little party - it took the whole crew to win an indoors "title" at the 3,000 and hey they, I mean, Hill, beat Rupp 4weeks after Rupp ran and won the Oly Marathon Trials. It's just like Hill beat Rupp at Outdoor Worlds in the 5,000 last summer. No wait, he didn't but that must have been because Hill was tired from having run the 10,000 at Worlds. No wait, that was Rupp who ran the 10k on Monday, Aug 22nd and then the Heats for the 5,000 on the 26th & Finals on the 29th beating both True & Hill. So for Christsakes, let them have this most meaningful victory beating Rupp at his best (having trained specifically for the 3,000).

Bad Wiggins,

Someone has to lead. Are you going to dq anyone who goes out too fast?

Everyone in the race qualified to be there. So they can run whatever pace they want. NOP guys were welcome to use the "pacemakers", but they chose not to.

Please read the rule book again.

There should not be a DQ because _______.

No rule was broken.

And you have the reading comprehension of a 5th grader.

Exactly. NOP did this in the 2012 Olympic trials in the 10k for ritz. He needed the standard so rump lead a great deal of it. Last year at the armory Levins doubled back and was leading a good deal of the two mile at Rupps requested pace. In both cases the person who paced a lot of the race, won it.

But this is like saying Kenyans should be DQ'd at worlds from one guy leading the steeple at a fast pace. They get 4 entrants usually and there are three medalists. If all four of them feel they benefit from a fast race, it's in their best interest to make it that way. They did nothing wrong.

I enjoyed this race more than the usual championship jogfest followed by a last lap sprint. If "sit and kick" is allowed (with two runners up front slowing down the pace), what we saw in the 3k is the perfect antidote. Rupp and Jenkins were hoping for a slow pace and their tactics backfired (as Jenkins pretty much admitted).

Cant wrote:

Exactly. NOP did this in the 2012 Olympic trials in the 10k for ritz. He needed the standard so rump lead a great deal of it. Last year at the armory Levins doubled back and was leading a good deal of the two mile at Rupps requested pace. In both cases the person who paced a lot of the race, won it.

But this is like saying Kenyans should be DQ'd at worlds from one guy leading the steeple at a fast pace. They get 4 entrants usually and there are three medalists. If all four of them feel they benefit from a fast race, it's in their best interest to make it that way. They did nothing wrong.

I really wish people would grasp the apples to apples thing. Like comparing a circuit race to a championship/world qualifier. Yeah, not the same. When Rupp lead part of the 10k, he was running at a pace that basically only he could handle comfortably, and yeah, he helped his teammate out while also helping himself because he wore out guys he didn't need around at the end. This is like Flanagan getting helped by her mate at marathon trials, see anyone complaining there? Of course not because the gals, like Rupp and Ritz were giving an honest effort in a championship race.

To compare apples, this would have been like Hill taking the lead midway and trading laps with Jäger. Guess what would have happened if they did that? Start to get tired and allow an actual race to occur, and Jenkins Lagat and Chelimo are in the mix.

I don't think there needs to be a DQ but your analysis is wrong. They did not all benefit but there is no need to make that case. Bayer and Lomong had no hope of running 7:30 and did not benefit from the pace. They ran at that pace to get Hill and Jager in the best position to take the top two spots. They went in knowing that Mead, Jenkins and Chelimo could all go low 7:40s and kick. Rupp was an unknown factor because of the marathon. Lomong walked off after 2k and Bayer finished well back. Jager did not have it at the end and was a few seconds in front of Rupp.That said, I have seen Kenyans and Ethiopians sacrifice their run for a countryman and finish 10th or 15th when they could have been top 6-7. At the 2012 trials Rupp paced Ritz to a time but probably could have won it in any fashion. The Levins 2 mile was not a championship and is irrelevant.

Cant wrote:

Exactly. NOP did this in the 2012 Olympic trials in the 10k for ritz. He needed the standard so rump lead a great deal of it. Last year at the armory Levins doubled back and was leading a good deal of the two mile at Rupps requested pace. In both cases the person who paced a lot of the race, won it.

But this is like saying Kenyans should be DQ'd at worlds from one guy leading the steeple at a fast pace. They get 4 entrants usually and there are three medalists. If all four of them feel they benefit from a fast race, it's in their best interest to make it that way. They did nothing wrong.

I would add that,while it may not merit a DQ, it can be unfortunate for the runner asked to sacrifice. uS Indoors does not matter much but imagine what it is like to make a world or Olympic final and then be asked to sacrifice your race for a teammate. I always think of El G' pacer in the Olympic final. I thought that was lame.