This is how deep is doping in Kenya

rekrunner wrote:

Can you explain "huge success" in running, and the link to EPO and blood doping and the "best athletes"?

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Wikipedia: Rita Jeptoo

"returning to competition in 2011.[13] The Rotterdam Marathon was her return marathon outing and she came fifth with a time of 2:28:09 hours.[14] She ran her fastest marathon time since 2005 at the Frankfurt Marathon, taking fifth place after 2:25:44 hours.[15]

Returning to the site of her 2006 win, she came sixth at the 2012 Boston Marathon. She came fourth at the Beach to Beacon 10K and Falmouth Road Race, but delivered her best performance in half a decade at the 2012 Chicago Marathon. A tight duel with Atsede Baysa in the latter stages of the race resulted in her narrowly finishing as runner-up, but her time of 2:22:04 hours knocked over a minute and half off her six-year-old personal best.

The 2013 RAK Half Marathon was so fast that Jeptoo improved her best to 66:27 minutes—making her the fifth fastest ever—but left her in third place in the race.

In 2013, she won both the Boston Marathon in a time of 2:26:25, and the Chicago Marathon in a time of 2:19:57 (personal best).

Rita defended her Boston Marathon title in 2014, winning with a time of 2:18:57 and setting a new course record"

Egun wrote:

I do not know how to respond to Mr. Canova.

I have gotten to the point where i just dont find him credible.

People who erect huge neon blinking signs pointing at others usually are trying to distract .

You are a nobody dipshat who has ZERO credibility. Mr Canova is one of the most respected coaches in the world.

Stick with defending the lying cheating Salazar, Egun.

RC catches a lot of flak so why does he stick around? Gotta admire his perseverance!!!!

Renato Canova wrote:

While using training only it's not possible to reach the same level of muscle power (and it's not a case that, after 1988, there are not new WR in throwing and in all the women events where the muscle power is the most important quality)

This is total nonsense. Steroid use has greatly increased since 1988, and yet still no new WR, the answer being no new WR because of increased steroid use, not the opposite. Steroids don't help muscle power any more than EPO helps top level marathoners, both of these being zero.

Both of the beliefs in some drugs changing humans to super beings are nonsense.

J.R. wrote:

This is total nonsense. Steroid use has greatly increased since 1988, and yet still no new WR, the answer being no new WR because of increased steroid use, not the opposite. Steroids don't help muscle power any more than EPO helps top level marathoners, both of these being zero.

Both of the beliefs in some drugs changing humans to super beings are nonsense.

Steroids certainly helped Koch and Kratochvilava to some quite ridiculous times.

They took drugs, the drugs took effect, they ran fast.

What part of this do you not understand?

(Or do you genuinely believe that they had natural facial hair and were just hipsters before their time?)

Muscle development

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZchQ9sh-LE

Doping in Kenya is as real as Renato Canova posting here :)

"EPO has been used with huge success for 25 years"I was expecting a bigger list, say spanning the claimed 25 years, of maybe the top 10 or so huge success stories, with some supposed link to EPO/blood doping.What would also be enlightening is a similar list without Africans.Then how could Renato turn a blind eye to such a list of facts?This would be a trivial exercise in cycling.

fred wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Can you explain "huge success" in running, and the link to EPO and blood doping and the "best athletes"?

Wikipedia: Rita Jeptoo

You're full of it wrote:

The WADA testing is not enough to catch the majority of the dopers.

I don't believe this to be the exact problem, but rather that there are so many world class East Africans that fall outside of the top 30 in the world, and as such are not and would not be included in the testing pool. I am genuinely less concerned with doping corrupting results at the very top of East Africa than I am with those who can stay just below that level of scrutiny, and earn a healthy income from road races in Europe and Asia without ever vying for a top spot on the world scene. I know of some who are coached by ex-Eastern Bloc coaches who are robbing their fellow athletes blind.

I travel in the same circles as Renato and you can think him ignorant or gullible, but he is no liar. There is of course no way to test many of his claims, but he does genuinely believe what he says.

It is pretty clear that Kenya have enjoyed huge success in the endurance events and it is also pretty clear that there is a lot of performance-enhancing drugs being used in Kenya. That should be a matter of concern for athletes. It certainly is a matter of concern to Wada. And it should be a concern anyone participating in those events.

--Dr. Richard Pound, at the start of the new IAAF/WADA investigation into Kenya Doping cover-up

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/nov/17/iaaf-kenya-investigation-doping-allegations

THAT is how deep doping is in Kenya: Just like Russia. This was the Kenya doping list as of a year ago:

The more recent data is that 40 Kenyans have tested positive in the last 2 years. That's more than all the Jamaicans that have ever tested positive all the way back to Ben Johnson, and half as many as all the Americans that have ever tested positive. And when you consider that Jamaica has FIFTY TIMES the per capita doping positives as the USA and 10 times that of any other major track power....and Kenya is under fire for both covering up tests and not doing out-of-competition testing. Imagine if they actually did testing!

Renato. I respect your knowledge as a track and field coach however I am finding it increasingly hard though to respect your constant defense of East African athletes (mostly Kenyan) with respect to doping.

What do your facts here mean? Really? What did the fact that Russia annually caught a handful of athletes for doping really mean? - that Russia only had a handful of athletes doping each year? Turns out the entire national program and probably 9/10 athletes in the Russian national team were up to their eyeballs in drugs.

What you produce are facts but more so selective statistics that are nice but ultimately meaningless.

I do agree that systematic doping by the Kenyan federation is probably a bit out of reach - but certainly not down to moral justifications. The reality is Kenya is a country with easy access to drugs that enhance performance, drug testing protocols that are hardly state of the art to put it mildly and a National federation that whilst may not condone doping, pretty much operates on a hear-no-evil, see-no-evil, speak-no-evil basis when it comes to taking percentages of it's top athletes earnings (which we both know they do).

I doubt you seriously believe that doping is the problem of the "middle class" of athletes - yet my instinct is that you want yourself to believe that top talent simply "separates" itself and leads to desperation amongst the remainder who scramble around and dabble in the world of doping out of desperation to become one of the elite.

If you get to the point where you do believe this - then you, with respect to the realities of doping, are basically like the track and field following world up until a few months ago - completely ignorant and delusion to the realities of doping in this sport.

Russia had RUSADA actively assisting athletes avoid positive tests. There is no equivilant in Kenya. The out of competition tests conducted in Kenya are conducted by international and not local testers. And in any case, AK couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery, nevermind a concerted effort to evade positive tests.

rekrunner wrote:

"EPO has been used with huge success for 25 years"

I was expecting a bigger list, say spanning the claimed 25 years, of maybe the top 10 or so huge success stories, with some supposed link to EPO/blood doping.

What would also be enlightening is a similar list without Africans.

Then how could Renato turn a blind eye to such a list of facts?

This would be a trivial exercise in cycling.

fred wrote:

Wikipedia: Rita Jeptoo

No, your exact question was " Can you explain "huge success" in running, and the link to EPO and blood doping and the "best athletes"?

Rita Jeptoo was one of the best athletes who had huge success and tested positive for EPO. They are all linked.

Left Said Fred wrote:

Russia had RUSADA actively assisting athletes avoid positive tests. There is no equivilant in Kenya. The out of competition tests conducted in Kenya are conducted by international and not local testers. And in any case, AK couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery, nevermind a concerted effort to evade positive tests.

Yes, the tests are carried out by the IAAF testers.

No chance of any corruption there then.

While that was indeed my exact question, nevertheless that was not my expectation, as can be verified by understanding the context I provided when I asked the question, and then my subsequent clarifications.Renato provided a list of some 26 athletes, most of them taking steroids.Seems like someone making the effort to provide a list of top athletes enjoying the huge success of EPO for 25 years, would be real data that can no longer be ignored.Such a list would be trivial for cycling, for the decade of 1995-2005.

fred wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

"EPO has been used with huge success for 25 years"

I was expecting a bigger list, say spanning the claimed 25 years, of maybe the top 10 or so huge success stories, with some supposed link to EPO/blood doping.

What would also be enlightening is a similar list without Africans.

Then how could Renato turn a blind eye to such a list of facts?

This would be a trivial exercise in cycling.

No, your exact question was " Can you explain "huge success" in running, and the link to EPO and blood doping and the "best athletes"?

Rita Jeptoo was one of the best athletes who had huge success and tested positive for EPO. They are all linked.

Without getting technical, you're an idiot if you think EPO & blood doping doesn't work on the best talents.

What if the best talent has a natural hct of 39?

Moron.

The guy screaming from the top of a mountain proclaiming innocence is usually the one who is guilty. To use an American analogy, Rush Limbaugh constantly raged on about drug abusers. Turns out he was addicted to prescription meds that he was getting illegally. The Politician who harped on gays constantly turned out to be having clandestine homosexual encounters in bus station bathrooms. Canova is a good coach, but even he can't know what his athletes are doing out of his presence. But much more troubling is that he has many posts showing athletes blood data. Why take blood data if you do not intend to manipulate it? It would be a waste of money. Drugs and doping work. People use them because they work. Saying some guy only ran 2:17 with EPO does not prove EPO is useless. That runner might have been a 2:22 runner otherwise and 2:17 might win thousands of dollars vs nothing. 2:06 results in life changing money for much of the world. When big money is at stake, people will cheat for it. Maybe the gain for someone nearly at the limit of human performance is smaller, but even .25% can mean a huge monetary gain. Go read the ProPublica articles on doping. It is not hard to beat the tests. Go read ANY study on EPO or other performance enhancers. THEY WORK! The more you scream from the mountain top, the less I believe you.

Renato Canova wrote:

Some poster compared Russian doping with Kenyan doping, and also among some official of WADA there was the same process.

.......

Knowing the real numbers. probably many people can change idea about the "widespread" doping in Kenya, also if is a fact that in the last 3 years the situation is worse than before.

rekrunner wrote:

While that was indeed my exact question, nevertheless that was not my expectation, as can be verified by understanding the context I provided when I asked the question, and then my subsequent clarification

.

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The context of your question could be interpreted in many ways and consequently only the exact question needs a response.

Epo test from summer 2000 and only urine.

So 15 years of tests not 25.

few athletes,group had access to epo until recent