Boston '78 wrote:
Rodgers and Wells ran 2:10:13 and 2:10:15 at Boston in '78.
Yes, and Boston is point-to-point and has a net elev drop.
Boston '78 wrote:
Rodgers and Wells ran 2:10:13 and 2:10:15 at Boston in '78.
Yes, and Boston is point-to-point and has a net elev drop.
The Overexplainer wrote:
Boston '78 wrote:Rodgers and Wells ran 2:10:13 and 2:10:15 at Boston in '78.
Yes, and Boston is point-to-point and has a net elev drop.
That was more of a reference to Wells being on the previous list mentioned with a 2:10:16 from '83.
Point to ponder
A number of US runners ran 2:10>2;12 THIRTY FIVE YEARS AGO when the WR was still about 2:08;
Today with the WR at 2:03 we have a number of US runners running 2:10>2;12
2:10 will always be 2:10 but its relationship to the WR time will change.
Saying "He beat me by a mile" is not the same as saying "He beat me by two miles"
Come on nobody broke 2:09 at Chicago. That dude that was second or third owns the fastest 12K that has ever been run. Those guys have run 2:04. Everybody looked pretty beat up at the end. What about Hall, he has cranked a few out. Luke was amazing, that must have been one brutal effort when the move was made.
Listen folks,
this realization you are having--that it is really, really rare for a white man to break 2:09--should reveal what a true anomaly Ryan Hall was.
Ryan Hall is the best we can do. Period.
Born and raised at altitude.
Running from an early age.
Running relatively big miles from an early age.
Good speed at shorter distances.
An incredibly smooth and beautiful gait.
Topped off by gray area medications??? Thyroid meds Rx'ed by Jeff Brown? (that pains me to write, as I've know Ryan since he was 15).
For those of us who have been around elite running for a long time, and especially those of us in California who saw this kid grow up, his sad decline has been especially tragic because WE CAN NOT DO BETTER THAN RYAN HALL.
This kid was our best chance for modern world-beating glory, and he had a great couple years, yet he STILL could not achieve the level of winning a major.
We often say that our best potential runners don't even run in the U.S. because they're playing soccer or video games. Well Ryan was that true outlier freak who actually found running.
As this thread shows, it is extremely unlikely "we" --i.e. an American BORN male, will produce another like him.
You should read "The Sports Gene" by David Epstein. There you will learn:- Many reasons that favor the East Africans- Not everyone avoids the issue
sospiri wrote:
I don't want to get involved in a discussion about the soci-economic reasons for an increase in East African elite level participation versus other nations, I think that subject is a bit of a red herring just like the drugs issue.
The real fact of the matter is that East African distance runners are more effcient runners and the real question is why?
And why does everyone avoid this issue? All the letsrun regulars avoid this issue and always have done. Why?
Listen dorks, the only thing that really favors the east africans is the lack of testing. that's it.. You take that 2:03 time, and you can adjust that to 2:08-2:09 without a massive amount of PED's!
Circumstantial. Drugs might have helped psychologically. Physical benefits of any drug for elites running the marathon is speculative.
errhhh... wrote:
"East Africans simply have that innate ability at an insurmountably superior level." Hummm..... Rita Jeptoo is east African, right? Do you think she ran her best times winning the Majors with that innate ability at an insurmountably superior level or with the drug that she was busted for later?
Nice story. East Africans have always been tested. If drugs actually worked, someone white would have figured out how to beat the testers, like Lance did in cycling.
humpty dumpty wrote:
Listen dorks, the only thing that really favors the east africans is the lack of testing. that's it.. You take that 2:03 time, and you can adjust that to 2:08-2:09 without a massive amount of PED's!
....like Lance did in cycling.
...like AlSal is doing with certain runners.
Just have them ask Rosie Perez for tips on being a better marathoner.
#1 Others pointed out the fallacy of the US 2:10 and below numbers.
#2 Without pacers, 2:10 is a very competitive time as evidenced by Chicago this year, Boston, New York in most years.
#3 With pacers, only East Africans are running faster than 2:08 and they are rarely tested out of competition. There might be a correlation there.
#4 A US runner has other easier options to earn $100k in a year besides winning a major marathon. East Africans don't. It is a crap shoot even for the African, but with no other options it becomes worth several years of poverty and hard training. Not so for the American. Therefore only the exceptionally talented will even try because running 2:15 and $3 will get you a coffee at Starbucks. Hence not as much depth in the US Marathon field.
rekrunner wrote:
Nice story. East Africans have always been tested. If drugs actually worked, someone white would have figured out how to beat the testers, like Lance did in cycling.
humpty dumpty wrote:Listen dorks, the only thing that really favors the east africans is the lack of testing. that's it.. You take that 2:03 time, and you can adjust that to 2:08-2:09 without a massive amount of PED's!
The Africans are still more talented so even if you're white with a working drug plan you're not going to win.
HRE wrote:
$$$$$? wrote:OK...here's a question. If a $20 Million Prize was offered for the first American born marathoner to break 2:03 within the next 3 years...could there be anyone in the USA capable of doing it? I don't think so.
I don't believe it's possible to run a marathon that fast without drugs and I think that while US runners do use drugs I think there's too much testing and scrutiny here to use enough of them to run that fast. So I'd agree with you.
Shorter and Rodgers ran fast enough to win races. They needed to tun only 2:09-2:10 back in the days. They could have run 2:03 or under if that had been necessary to win over East Africans.
The Way We Were wrote:
HRE wrote:I don't believe it's possible to run a marathon that fast without drugs and I think that while US runners do use drugs I think there's too much testing and scrutiny here to use enough of them to run that fast. So I'd agree with you.
Shorter and Rodgers ran fast enough to win races. They needed to tun only 2:09-2:10 back in the days. They could have run 2:03 or under if that had been necessary to win over East Africans.
They couldn't even always win against their peers so that obvious troll of yours seems highly unlikely.
I'm a big fan of both and agree they could have run faster PRs if they'd needed to do it to win. But I seriously doubt they could have run 2:03. Of course there's no way of proving either of us are right.
All Americans are developing grain intolerance and insulin resistance and resorting to Paleo diets which it very tough for most marathoners
humpty dumpty wrote:
Listen dorks, the only thing that really favors the east africans is the lack of testing. that's it.. You take that 2:03 time, and you can adjust that to 2:08-2:09 without a massive amount of PED's!
It must be embarrasing for all white runners to be so much more stupid than the East Africans, who obviously can use PED´s and get away with it, unlike the white guys.
HRE wrote:
I'm a big fan of both and agree they could have run faster PRs if they'd needed to do it to win. But I seriously doubt they could have run 2:03. Of course there's no way of proving either of us are right.
Frank had a PR of 2:10:30 and he needed just under 2:10 to win in Montreal. And he didn't.
Truth teller! wrote:
humpty dumpty wrote:Listen dorks, the only thing that really favors the east africans is the lack of testing. that's it.. You take that 2:03 time, and you can adjust that to 2:08-2:09 without a massive amount of PED's!
It must be embarrasing for all white runners to be so much more stupid than the East Africans, who obviously can use PED´s and get away with it, unlike the white guys.
White guys are crybabies who think anyone who beats them is cheating. Luke Puskedra ran 2:15 so he almost decided to become a realtor or a contractor. He had a bunch of options, including living off of his wife. Meanwhile, the Africans who beat white runners silly don't have the option to become realtors or contractors. They work harder to maximize their talent. White guys would rather go work at a hedge fun or design an Iphone app. and get paid millions without breaking a sweat.