Coaching coached kids?

Privately coached kids are typically the top few percent among their peers and with parents who can afford the belief that money will buy success. They are going to be good wherever they go or who they run for. Private coach may be a good option if school coach doesnt have the skills to help them reach their potential but its a little disturbing when the athlete and parent takes on an arrogance to the point where they only want to wear the team uniform, show up for whatever meets they feel fits their schedule and not participate in anything that has to do with the team building/bonding/effort in competition etc... In other words, not reliable nor provide any leadership. In addition, knowing there are some clueless or disinterested hs coaches, I think you underestimate how far the hs track coach has come the last 20 years. They have access to the same educational programs as private coaches and most were athletes as well. Most hs coaches have a passion for the sport. It's hard to convince others to commit to the 15 weeks or so and the amount of hours required to plan programs for large numbers of athletes in varying stages of development for 18 events. Privately coaching one event with a few elite kids doesn't make you any better for sure. Throw in managing equipment, facilities, fundraisers, parents, schedules, assistant coaches etc... Then we can have a conversation of equal comparison.

So, what's wrong with supporting their classmates rather than an alternative individual that ignores all of the other benefits/skills that are developed by being held accountable to others and providing leadership as well? I suspect you are one of those private coaches that wear the t-shirt around at the state meet with all of the kids names from surrounding schools who you privately coach for advertising. Classy way to promote a non-team philosophy in a team sport.

I'll let you have the last word big guy, sounds like you've got it all figured out. Good luck winning any team awards. Also, in the classroom, the smart kid will keep the test scores high because they are smart and have had the proper parent involvement along the way. Teachers plan for and customize their curriculum to challenge and help them excel further. Schools work hard for those that aren't at the top to help them prepare for post secondary programs through remediation and diversification of modalities to meet the students needs regardless of their previous experiences, language barriers, disabilities etc....This is more than I can say for private coaches who are always there for those elites when things go well to take the credit but rarely around when things don't go well or take any responsibility or follow up.

Here is the test: Real coaches don't feel, in the least bit, threatened by private coaches. They are confident and secure in their coaching ability, but want the best for every athlete.

Yes--agree. And a coach like this is likely to lead a program that makes private coaching irrelevant and unlikely.

The Donger wrote:

Most private coaches empesize selfishness over team. They don't have an understanding of how to properly train so they just run hard intervals to get fast quickly. It works but they peak too soon. Plenty of HS coaches do this as well.

Donger, I think it would be wise to emphasize (or empesize) that there are many very good private coaches out there who fill the void left by incompetent, uneducated and careless team coaches who do little more than collect a pay check.

If coaching was a vetted profession, and compensated slightly better than indentured servants are, then there would be no need for private coaches in this country. Until then, private coaches will remain.

I like where this thread has turned, and actually am a bit surprised.

This is what I'll say, I've been both and there are terrible coaches on both sides of the equation. There are several thousand more dangerous high school coaches than private coaches however. Private coaches actually have to produce to survive, for the most part. High School coaches can rely on rhetoric such as "selfish," "team," "no college will take an athlete who has a private coach," etc., to force kids to keep coming to them even when they are dangerous. It is sad when a coach cannot earn the trust of kids and parents and keep them in that way. If you cannot do that, no matter what your record, you are doing something wrong. As a high school coach, I never lost a kid and I had plenty go after them, even other high school coaches.

Rodeo Expert-

I coach at a public HS and I've never been paid a dime to coach. (Actually they make me take a paycheck, which I sign over to the local Y).

I do not feel, in the least bit, threatened if an athlete wants to try a coaching scheme that is not my own. I encourage them and hope they are successful.

It's not about me, as my moniker says- I've been there, done that.

The athletes control their future, and make their own choices. I'm just there to provide whatever support, guidance, and assistance I can. As much or as little as each athlete needs.

As for team awards, we have our fair share-- and then some. In HS it's not writing workouts that wins championships, it's creating a perpetuating atmosphere where all athletes want to succeed and will do everything in their power to succeed. With that atmosphere workouts become not so important.

My job is to encourage, not discourage.

Too many egos make for a rocky road, I don't need to put mine into the mix.

Asking a successful MS athlete to change coaches and schemes against their will, especially if that athlete is a female that has had success at a young age, is a recipe for blame and disaster. Why would you want to do that to yourself and the athlete?

Baloney wrote:

Here is the test: Real coaches don't feel, in the least bit, threatened by private coaches. They are confident and secure in their coaching ability, but want the best for every athlete.

Yes--agree. And a coach like this is likely to lead a program that makes private coaching irrelevant and unlikely.

That's my exact experience.

So True. I don't think there are a lot of public school coaches in it to collect a paycheck (although we all know which one's those are . . the one's loading the buses when there are still athletes running). But there are a large number of coaches that simply don't know what they are doing in every event, how could they? Especially in rural areas. During track, I welcome (ie beg) a local throwing coach to come donate his time with my kids. He threw D1 and is nationally known. I once threw a baseball and it went about 50ft. When a coach is not competent in certain areas and admits it, that's a really good coach. When a coach is 100% competent and confident in their coaching ability they will not feel threatened if an athlete wants to pay for other coaching- and that's a good coach. When a coach fakes it and becomes belligerent when other methods or coaches are discussed to obscure their own shortcomings, then there are serious issues.Sometimes it's in between, where both coaches know what they are doing, then just leave it to the kid to decide who they want to coach them so that their poor performances and injuries are never "because of coaching". I've found that if you are a positive person, athletes will be drawn to you and the team and want to be around, even if someone else is writing their workouts.

treeline wrote:

The Donger wrote:

Most private coaches empesize selfishness over team. They don't have an understanding of how to properly train so they just run hard intervals to get fast quickly. It works but they peak too soon. Plenty of HS coaches do this as well.

Donger, I think it would be wise to emphasize (or empesize) that there are many very good private coaches out there who fill the void left by incompetent, uneducated and careless team coaches who do little more than collect a pay check.

If coaching was a vetted profession, and compensated slightly better than indentured servants are, then there would be no need for private coaches in this country. Until then, private coaches will remain.

Been There, Done That wrote:

Baloney wrote:

Yes--agree. And a coach like this is likely to lead a program that makes private coaching irrelevant and unlikely.

That's my exact experience.

And that apparently is also Tough Cookies experience.

"As a high school coach, I never lost a kid and I had plenty go after them, even other high school coaches."

If a private coach was worth his metal and not so insecure (or in it for the money) he wouldn't recruit.

I'm not arguing all private coaches are pathetic used cars salesman. Just most.

If you are so great why is it you only come try to poach my kids after they get good? If an athletes sticks with a coach from MS or decides to move on, no problem. This has never happened for the 15 years I have been a coach. It's has always been the private coach that comes around to meets and gives them a pitch of how if they trained them they'd be (put in some unrealistic time here).

I am sure you as a private coach who has never gone around poaching elites. Sweet. You are in the minority however.

Just understand it works both ways. If you coach kids that improve throughout all their high school career and then move on to college with more room to improve, you are in the minority. Affiliate yourself on a side of this at your own peril. If you want to be lumped in, and defend, all high school coaches, it won't go well for you. As has been said, if you're losing kids, they don't trust you. That's on you.

The Donger wrote:

If a private coach was worth his metal and not so insecure (or in it for the money) he wouldn't recruit.

I'm not arguing all private coaches are pathetic used cars salesman. Just most.

If you are so great why is it you only come try to poach my kids after they get good? If an athletes sticks with a coach from MS or decides to move on, no problem. This has never happened for the 15 years I have been a coach. It's has always been the private coach that comes around to meets and gives them a pitch of how if they trained them they'd be (put in some unrealistic time here).

I am sure you as a private coach who has never gone around poaching elites. Sweet. You are in the minority however.

Again Mr. Donger, I coach at a public HS. So I'm not sure who you are referring to.

I do agree with this though: "If a private coach was worth his metal and not so insecure (or in it for the money) he wouldn't recruit." This is true. I, as a coach, actually recruit the private coaches to help in specific field event areas. And I've never once had one reject because they weren't getting paid.

I've never had an athlete feel they needed supplemental head coaching once they were coached by me (I have had some that want to lift more, etc), but I have had some who have been "raised" on a program that differs from my philosophy, ie some ms athletes are running 40-50 mpw. I won't run kids that much. But I sure as hell ain't going to tell them they can't train like that anymore.

I'm going to tell them "yes, my philosophy is different than what you are currently doing, my philosophy is XYZ, but I know you have had success with your current program and will support you 100%. I'm excited for you to be on our team and I'm here to help however I can---- So if you want to continue with your current coach, how can I help? Can we sit down with your parents and other coach and discuss what meets you will run in this year, whether you will lift with the team, whether you will come to team dinners, whether you want to participate in relays, etc. " Then I will focus my efforts on being a positive influence in their athletic career and hope they succeed and the high mileage doesn't destroy them or make them unrecruitable. That's my job.

Again, I know of several instances where coaches were actually hoping their former athletes failed when they went to a new program, that is actually sickening.

Controll Freak wrote:

You need to loosen the reins, Rodeo Clown. You have no control over these kids outside of practice. Most areas don't allow team practices this time of year. He's training and he'll be fit when the season starts. Then you can work your magic.

I find it amusing that those seeing no problem with a private coach poaching the fastest kids are also those that are being rude about the situation. This is exactly what I encountered with the coach in question prior to writing the original post. I don't know if you all are just rogue individuals, which is cool, but you need to understand there is a structure and proper etiquette in society. Especially with liability issues and the prevalence of inappropriate relationships between coaches and athletes, you can't just go around picking up kids to coach without at least discussing things with parents and ideally coaches they are working out with at that time. It's not like I'm not offering practices. I have a specific program I want them to follow for the current phase of their cross country training and it is based on a history of successful results. If I am having workouts with kids, someone who is supposed to be knowledgeable about training shouldn't start throwing in workouts on the side that contradict the kids' training at that time. This will lead to burnout and confusion.

The main difference I see between private/on the side coaches vs. many high school coaches is the side coaches are looking to focus on individuals, while coaches like myself are focused on creating an awesome team, which I have. This culture I have created will sustain the outside influence from this side coach, but I still think it's a reasonable question to ask whether I should have been communicated with at some point while he started to conduct practices with these runners.

As a side note, he has told a parent he hadn't contact me and that he would, and that never happened. He took exception to me suggesting that the proper thing would have been to contact me at some point.

And for those talking about accolades and certification, that only goes so far to prove your value as a coach. Tell me more about honor role students, college graduates, and how you got kids to love running and I'd give you kudos. You don't need to puff out your chest about how you helped talented kids do well.

I agree that when the high school coach is good, he or she will probably never have athletes recruited away. The problem that has arisen in my area is when the youth athlete has come to one of the local high school after being pretty good at the national level. We have a couple of local clubs and therefore club coaches who have ripped the local coaches before the kids ever get there in order to keep their level of control. This is because even at the high school level, they want their athletes to focus on various USATF meets. These are kids who are often running 50-60 miles per week in middle school, coming in with significant history of injury, but also some hardware from nationals, and then are being told that it is the high school coach's fault that they do not continue to be competitive at the national level. In some cases these are talented athletes. In most cases they are athletes who should at least contribute at the high school level. In many cases, despite their abilities, these are athletes who I would prefer to not have on my team, which is a shame.

Wow! You really are a control freak! You want to take credit for kids graduating from college and getting on the honor roll? I suppose these kids' teachers and parents - the ones that actually have a legitimate claim to being proud of these things in addition to the kids themselves - are 'interfering" with your ability the get them on the honor roll. I'm not sure I've ever said or written this before, but get over yourself. And also, the only kids who succeed as athletes on your team might be the talented ones but a lot of coaches will help a kid who can't break 20 as a frosh get to state meets and college running in the future. There have been some very rational, polite posters on this thread on both sides of the issue. You are not one of them and every kid who gets "poached" from your program is better off.Finally, the last people in the world who want to talk about the dangers of "inappropriate relationships" are high school coaches. I haven't lived in a town yet where at least one high school coach hasn't been arrested for relations with athletes. i have never seen a private coach have this problem. I am not saying it has never happened, I am just saying the numbers against the high school coaches with those violations. There is a difference between a team and a cult. I think you have made it obvious which side you are on.

Yes. This is a problem and the most difficult situation for me to watch.But one must stand by and watch if you do not want to discourage the athlete.If you take a FROSH, especially a female, who's running 40-50 mpw in MS, and put them into a sane system (25-35 avg) . . . they WILL run slower for a couple years. They likely would run slower for a couple of years without changing a thing.So, you are setting the athlete up frustration and failure if you demand they switch over to your system and leave their coach.Look at the data the athlete is working with "With Club coach I ran 5:00 1500 in 8th grade, with HS Coach I am running a 5:30 1600, I'm slower. It's all because of the coaching change. . . and on and on". Here is what I do. Invite them to participate wherever they want and encourage. Don't drive them away from your team. In 2 years when the athlete is running slower, is injured, and having a hard time under her old coach, she will either quit (not good) OR switch to the positive influence coach and start improving and be a leader on your team for 2 years and tell everyone how bad she was running until you started coaching her. This happens. Let it.

How is calling names, i.e. "Rodeo Clown," polite?

How about not taking credit for anything and just doing the best we can to help kids achieve their goals and realize new limits beyond what they ever thought obtainable? Every kid can achieve success because their definition of accomplishment is personal. For some it may be breaking 20 minutes, but for others it's an major deal to break 30 minutes. And I am thrilled when I see either happen and I don't take credit for it. It is the hard work of the individuals that made their achievements happen.

I also never mentioned "interfering," and "poached" in the post you quoted, so why are you putting quotes around those words as if I did?

And you pretty much agreed with the point I tried to make about contact between adults and kids. Regardless of whether the individual is a high school coach or a private coach it's important to understand the responsibilities that are assumed when you start coaching kids. I think high school coaches understand those responsibilities more than private coaches because it is also part of our profession if we are teachers. It's unfortunate that we have to tippy-toe through life when working with you because of liability, but that is the world we live in.

I tried to explain myself and you choose to attack me. That is not rational, nor polite.

I hope I have clarified myself further so I can avoid more personal attacks on my character.

Tell me more about how kids running for a different coach during the summer affects your ability to get kids on the honor roll, graduate college, and enhance their love of running?

The point I was making, in response to others touting their accolades, was that helping kids reach certain heights of performance, like being a all-American, doesn't define who is or isn't a good coach. Obviously I didn't make my point well.

And "Controll Freak," my apologies. I did reference "poaching" in the post you took issue with. I'd rather admit my mistake than be called out for what I said.