Nicole Bush's mishap

Apparently she forgot to jump.

Spectacular fall wrote:

Seen some spectacular images of them going into the drink, and saw her go down on the webcast. But couldn't see how or why, and definitely couldn't see any post fall drama.

Pictures or video feed of pre and post crash?

Video starts ~6:12

Tim S wrote:

Exactly what does it hurt to put one extra in the final ? Especially when she is a former champion.

If she performs well in the final (and remember T&F News has her picked for second), she (assuming she gets the standard in time) displaces someone else from the World Champs team, and takes away prize money from everyone else.

I know it's the feel good thing to advance everyone to the finals, but does anyone think for one second that this appeal would be granted in the Olympics?

And JFC at least they didn't DQ Kipp...

I mean seriously, if the jury feels that Kipp impeded Bush, then she should be DQ'd right?

How can you argue in the same breath that Kipp impeded Bush, and therefore Bush should be advanced, but Kipp doesn't deserve to be disqualified?

In no way do I think that Kipp should be DQ'd, I just don't understand how you play "nice guy" and try to make everyone happy at USAs...

I spoke with Sue Humphrey (chair of Women's T&F). She was not on the appeals committee but watched the video and was familiar with the incident.

She says if any of the other athletes in the race had a problem with this protest, they had 30 minutes to appeal it. Basically the expectation is that athletes or their people are supposed to hang out at the protest tent so they can protest any protests?

It's the same bullshit we had regarding Bumbalough's DQ at Indoors. Athletes don't always KNOW there is going to be a protest that affects them. This decision affects every single athlete that Bush beats if she performs well in finals.

And I'm not allowed to stalk the appeals committee, I need to wait to get a statement from Jill Geer on the issue.

Bush won the 2013 steeple title (Emma injured) and ran 9:24 last year. Why did she leave Furman group; looked like her career was back on track. Hasn't done a thing this year and should not be let into final. She was 15 seconds from qualifying; she didn't lose 5 seconds.

polevaultpower wrote:

It's the same bullshit we had regarding Bumbalough's DQ at Indoors. Athletes don't always KNOW there is going to be a protest that affects them. This decision affects every single athlete that Bush beats if she performs well in finals.

I'm not disputing that USATF is not the most forthcoming (or makes the most sense) with their rules but this is a rule that has gone on for a while. On top of that, no other athlete was displaced from the final. The final hasn't changed. She was likely going to qualify in the final.

The fall itself is open to debate but I'm guessing since the final is only days away they felt they had better things to do than waste their time.

If she qualifies in the final then she's the best this country has to offer. Not sure why this is such a huge deal to you, it almost sounds like you have a personal vendetta against her rather than you want to see 'the right thing done.'

Okay I looked at it 3-4 times (6:18-30 into the video, about 5:15-20 into the race itself) and did the best I could to freeze the frames.

Bush hesitated and stumbled over the barrier and did the amazingly spectacular head dive into the water. Glad she was okay. She's tries to get up. Kipp comes through and more or less stumbles over the barrier the same way Bush did--almost did a back and forth there. When she finally got over (more or less a fall) she landed on Bush who was just standing up and trying to step out.

So it's not a black and white "foul" (Bush was impeded), it was an inadvertant stumble by Kipp that resulted in bumping (fairly substantially) into Bush who was still in 2 1/2 to 3 feet of water. Kipp did not cause the mishap. No harm no foul.

Likewise, putting Bush into the final will not result in any harm.

Looking forward to the final!

dwightarm wrote:

If she qualifies in the final then she's the best this country has to offer. Not sure why this is such a huge deal to you, it almost sounds like you have a personal vendetta against her rather than you want to see 'the right thing done.'

I don't know if you saw my username, but it's _Pole Vault_ Power, not Steeplechase Power. I don't know either athlete. If anything, I am sympathetic to Nicole, knowing that she has been a victim of USATF mistakes in the past.

I believe in fairness, consistency and transparency. I believe our athletes need to be held to the same standards they will be internationally.

Sometimes that means our fastest and best athletes don't make it out of prelims and get left home. We are a country that chooses athletes based on how they perform at Nationals, not by committee.

Let's say it wasn't Bush who fell. What if it was one of the slower qualifiers? Under the exact same circumstances, would you advance the slower runner to the finals?

Many are arguing that she should advance partly because of who she is and what she's done in the past, and frankly I don't think that is, or should be, relevant.

Here is another angle on the video:

https://instagram.com/p/4aEIUFmXSQ/

And here are some splits...

Bush’s splits before the fall were 1:16 and some change. The lap she fell was a 1:28. Her subsequent laps were 1:25, 1:28, 1:22.

Kipp also was running 1:16s before the fall. She ran a 1:22 on the lap she fell and then ran 1:19, 1:19, 1:17 after.

I think one of the issues I have is how do you successfully argue that Bush would have qualified without the second fall? The first fall was clearly much worse, Kipp knocking her over was more of a stumble. Did it slow her down further? Absolutely. But she missed the cutoff for finals by about 14 seconds.

Kipp's action did not delay Bush by 14 seconds. Did it make her mentally give up? Like if she hadn't been bumped the second time, she would have mentally recovered from the big fall and run faster?

I don't like granting appeals based on speculation about what an athlete might have done.

Bush fell, entirely her fault. She was then bumped over by Kipp, a lesser incident. She then ran the final laps at much slower than normal pace. Had she not been bumped by Kipp, and ran the same pace, she would not have qualified.

The fall would have happened either way. The amount of time that Kipp bumping her added to her time was nowhere near the difference in her qualifying.

Isn't that one of the things you have to consider in an appeal, whether or not the athlete would have qualified if the incident did not occur? I personally don't feel like you can make a strong case she would have.

Had she not fallen, she absolutely would have qualified. But she fell, and it was her fault. I really think it is a stretch to say that Kipp's actions are what caused her to miss the final.

The time she was impeded was less than she missed the final by. Wonder if Nicole even thought it would be a possibility to appeal? Sounds more like Agent/Coach snapping into action.

She should absolutely not be advanced no matter what happens in the final (1st or last).

she's lucky Shalaya kipp still made it. I would of been irate.

imvho wrote:

she's lucky Shalaya kipp still made it. I would of been irate.

What's funny is if Kipp had just missed advancing, she could have protested. Surely her protest would have been upheld? Would they have granted both protests?

From the latest video, Kipp was 5th coming into the water hazard. Two runners passed her during the kerfuffle, but Bush dropped back, so she was 6th by the time she got back on the track. Since ended up in 5th, ten seconds ahead of the 6th place runner. So she must have caught someone by the finish.

Any idea who she caught, and how or when?

Does anyone know what position Bush was in when she finally got out of the hazard?

Does anyone know if under the rules it is possible to impede another runner without committing a foul? In this case, I can see how one could rule that Kipp impeded Bush, but did not foul her, since it was Bush's crash that sent Kipp off course. But then it would seem that then Bush fouled Kipp.

My hunch is that the USATF is simply following the lead of George Washington Plunkitt, a New York city pol who famously said, "What is the law between friends?"

Agree.....There was another runner between Bush and Kipp - no way was Bush's fall anyone's fault but her own. The second bump was Kipp not having good sight of Bush getting up in her own effort to recover from having to climb, a little unbalanced, over a hurdle.

Not really relevant wrote:

Does anyone know if under the rules it is possible to impede another runner without committing a foul? In this case, I can see how one could rule that Kipp impeded Bush, but did not foul her, since it was Bush's crash that sent Kipp off course. But then it would seem that then Bush fouled Kipp.

I don't think you could argue that Bush fouled Kipp; falling over a water jump is not illegal. I agree that Kipp didn't foul Bush either, but after that crash Bush suffered more than she should have due to the circumstances of the fall and getting knocked back over after starting to get up. I'm glad she got through to the final, it seems fair to me.

Spectacular fall wrote:

Seen some spectacular images of them going into the drink, and saw her go down on the webcast. But couldn't see how or why, and definitely couldn't see any post fall drama.

Pictures or video feed of pre and post crash?

I saw that immediately on the live video. Kipp was all over Bush, and I sure thought that Kipp was going to be DQ'd for it, but she wasn't.

As others have said, it was a good call to put Bush in the final, and I feel it was the right thing to do.

polevaultpower wrote:

If she or her coach felt that Kipp caused her to fall in the first place, surely they would have put that on the protest?

Maybe they didn't realize that part of it, and didn't look that closely on the video.

I don't know, but it was obvious on the video that Kipp was all over Bush when they were coming over the barrier, and afterward.