So what exactly were Lydiards 50 meter sprints exactly?

I have my girl's XC do a version of this workout toward the end of the season.

I have them on for 50 which is a sprint and off 50 which is @ 5k pace for as long as they can go. The best will only make it for 5 laps. Once their sprint looks like their float I pull them because they are done. I have noticed this workout really brings them on.

I label the sprint cones with magic marker saying "go" or the kids get confused.

otter wrote:

I have my girl's XC do a version of this workout toward the end of the season.

I have them on for 50 which is a sprint and off 50 which is @ 5k pace for as long as they can go. The best will only make it for 5 laps. Once their sprint looks like their float I pull them because they are done. I have noticed this workout really brings them on.

I label the sprint cones with magic marker saying "go" or the kids get confused.

so the 5k pace is faster than a float pace right

you!!! wrote:

otter wrote:

I have my girl's XC do a version of this workout toward the end of the season.

I have them on for 50 which is a sprint and off 50 which is @ 5k pace for as long as they can go. The best will only make it for 5 laps. Once their sprint looks like their float I pull them because they are done. I have noticed this workout really brings them on.

I label the sprint cones with magic marker saying "go" or the kids get confused.

so the 5k pace is faster than a float pace right

i guess so

J.R. wrote:

Nice clip of Lasse Viren at 2:18 of the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFGEcQcIm8k

Notice he is NOT floating along near top speed in between them, but rather is jogging along quite easily for recoveries.

Thanks for the video link but the clip of Viren is one of him doing sprints after his interval workout. I suppose that this is like doing strides after your workout and naturally you would be walking/jogging back the recoveries to the start.

J.R. wrote:

Nice clip of Lasse Viren at 2:18 of the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFGEcQcIm8k

Notice he is NOT floating along near top speed in between them, but rather is jogging along quite easily for recoveries.

I have Viren's book, with details of his training by his coach, Rolf Haikkola, not anyone else. The sprints were his workout, and they weren't just strides at the end of a workout. He is running hard, and the floats/jogs were slow like the few seconds that weren't cut out at the end, probably at half speed or less.

otter wrote:

I have my girl's XC do a version of this workout toward the end of the season.

I have them on for 50 which is a sprint and off 50 which is @ 5k pace for as long as they can go. The best will only make it for 5 laps. Once their sprint looks like their float I pull them because they are done. I have noticed this workout really brings them on.

You should really consider what you're doing. The following is from Viren's book, and training quotations by Viren's coach, Rolf Haikkola.

Viren ran 5000m of 50m sprints on August 1st 1972, then 23:52.4 on the 3rd, another 5k depletion workout on grass on August 26, his first Olympic heat on August 31, and the WR final on September 3rd.

On August 23, Viren averaged 27.2 for 20x 200m, with 55 second jogs, the jogs being about 1/2 the speed of the sprints, not at 5k pace which would be impossible. There would be no way for even Viren to do such a workout, and certainly not after another hard interval workout. These 5k's to 8k's of sprints were the workouts.

The August 26 session was run with spikes, but on heavy and slippery grass, perhaps the workout shown in the video from 2:19 on, and Viren was completely exhausted at the end which was what they were aiming for. The target had been to drive his HR up to 200 on the sprints.

L.A wrote:

A.L wrote:

at what pace were the 50 meters sprint , were they all out?

Yes they were all out

Stupid question with a stupid answer here.

If you have to ask "at what pace were the sprints?" then IT ISN'T SPRINTING.

If you can do 5 miles of 50 "sprint" / 50 float, IT ISN'T SPRINTING.

No, you do not "sprint" 80x50 with 15 seconds float rest. If you actually hand-timed these faster/slower JOGS you would find them doing mile pace at best, not sprinting. Even Lydiard himself says 7s/50m is normal for this FOR ELITES. That is 14s per 100 or 56 per 400 for ELITES. THAT IS NOT SPRINTING.

Most distance runners, other than the modern greats like Mo Farah and Galen Rupp, don't know what SPRINTING.

J.R. wrote:

Nice clip of Lasse Viren at 2:18 of the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFGEcQcIm8k

Notice he is NOT floating along near top speed in between them, but rather is jogging along quite easily for recoveries.

I'm not sure how that video of Viren is relevant to 50-50s. Those sprints are corner to corner on a soccer pitch (average 105m x 70m) so they must be over 120m.

Anyway J.R, you can't see enough of his recoveries to see what pace he is doing. That jog at the end is obviously unconnected to the workout.

Watch and learn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OacB2xL2CgM

Now a Coach wrote:

I'm not sure how that video of Viren is relevant to 50-50s. Those sprints are corner to corner on a soccer pitch (average 105m x 70m) so they must be over 120m.

Anyway J.R, you can't see enough of his recoveries to see what pace he is doing. That jog at the end is obviously unconnected to the workout.

You need to actually do these things, and try them for yourself, also THINK and then you will see that sprinting, then floating at 5k pace is impossible, not only that but it would not give the intended result. Just run a time trial if you're going to run so evenly, and pace it so you don't quit at 5 laps.

But blindly follow some wrong idea if you want.

fan of Lydiard wrote:

J.R. wrote:

Nice clip of Lasse Viren at 2:18 of the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFGEcQcIm8k

Notice he is NOT floating along near top speed in between them, but rather is jogging along quite easily for recoveries.

Thanks for the video link but the clip of Viren is one of him doing sprints after his interval workout. I suppose that this is like doing strides after your workout and naturally you would be walking/jogging back the recoveries to the start.

Regardless of the specifics of the workout on the video, I interpreted WHEN he does the workout a little differently. Rather than it being strides after a workout, I think it is not done on the same day as interval workouts. Note the text said it was done "after a period of interval workouts" - so you do a few weeks of interval workouts, and this is the next phase. In my interpretation of Lydiard training, I have days where my only workout is 4 laps of sprint 50/float 50. I also will do strides after longer workouts, but I don't think that is what the video was showing.

runthecountry wrote:

Regardless of the specifics of the workout on the video, I interpreted WHEN he does the workout a little differently. Rather than it being strides after a workout, I think it is not done on the same day as interval workouts. Note the text said it was done "after a period of interval workouts" - so you do a few weeks of interval workouts, and this is the next phase. In my interpretation of Lydiard training, I have days where my only workout is 4 laps of sprint 50/float 50. I also will do strides after longer workouts, but I don't think that is what the video was showing.

Yes, that makes more sense.

runthecountry wrote:

Regardless of the specifics of the workout on the video, I interpreted WHEN he does the workout a little differently. Rather than it being strides after a workout, I think it is not done on the same day as interval workouts. Note the text said it was done "after a period of interval workouts" - so you do a few weeks of interval workouts, and this is the next phase. In my interpretation of Lydiard training, I have days where my only workout is 4 laps of sprint 50/float 50. I also will do strides after longer workouts, but I don't think that is what the video was showing.

Good point, you may be right. I was looking at what he was doing and it looked like a typical post interval workout of strides across the diagonals of a soccer pitch, with jogging either back to the start or across the short side of the pitch (he seemed to be always running fast in the same direction so I assumed he was going back to the start). It did not look like a 50/50 workout though as the diagonal must be at least ~100m as others have pointed out. Anyway, just watching Viren smoothly striding along is enough to make me want to just get out and run!

5k of 100/100 on the grass.

rupp-certified saladbar wrote:

L.A wrote:

Yes they were all out

Stupid question with a stupid answer here.

If you have to ask "at what pace were the sprints?" then IT ISN'T SPRINTING.

If you can do 5 miles of 50 "sprint" / 50 float, IT ISN'T SPRINTING.

No, you do not "sprint" 80x50 with 15 seconds float rest. If you actually hand-timed these faster/slower JOGS you would find them doing mile pace at best, not sprinting. Even Lydiard himself says 7s/50m is normal for this FOR ELITES. That is 14s per 100 or 56 per 400 for ELITES. THAT IS NOT SPRINTING.

Most distance runners, other than the modern greats like Mo Farah and Galen Rupp, don't know what SPRINTING.

Yes, came here to say this. So, did we ever get an answer on the speed of these?

Mile pace, 800 pace? It's clearly not a sprint if it's going for more than 1 lap.

J.R. wrote:

Now a Coach wrote:

I'm not sure how that video of Viren is relevant to 50-50s. Those sprints are corner to corner on a soccer pitch (average 105m x 70m) so they must be over 120m.

Anyway J.R, you can't see enough of his recoveries to see what pace he is doing. That jog at the end is obviously unconnected to the workout.

You need to actually do these things, and try them for yourself, also THINK and then you will see that sprinting, then floating at 5k pace is impossible, not only that but it would not give the intended result. Just run a time trial if you're going to run so evenly, and pace it so you don't quit at 5 laps.

But blindly follow some wrong idea if you want.

You can blindly go on continuing not to grasp the point of my posts if you want.

Now a Coach wrote:

You can blindly go on continuing not to grasp the point of my posts if you want.

Hehehe, no thanks. I'll leave that up to you.

I dont get you, what is the 23:52.4 time for

what was the ratio between tthe sprints and the floats