I can do 6 x 400m at 800m pace 1 min rest, top elites w/ a higher lactate tolerance could probably do 8 x 400m at 800m pace 1 min rest, so these guys couldn't do 10 x 400m 1 min rest AT MILE PACE NOT 800m PACE?
I can do 6 x 400m at 800m pace 1 min rest, top elites w/ a higher lactate tolerance could probably do 8 x 400m at 800m pace 1 min rest, so these guys couldn't do 10 x 400m 1 min rest AT MILE PACE NOT 800m PACE?
Your 800 is soft then. Maybe with double time rest (rep in 60, therefore 2:00 rest), but not one minute rest.
NOP Skeptic wrote:
I can do 6 x 400m at 800m pace 1 min rest, top elites w/ a higher lactate tolerance could probably do 8 x 400m at 800m pace 1 min rest, so these guys couldn't do 10 x 400m 1 min rest AT MILE PACE NOT 800m PACE?
A few workouts with sources-
El Guerrouj- 10x400 in 53-54 with 30 sec rest
http://www.oztrack.com/hicham.htm
Daniel Komen- 15x400 @ 56-57 with 45 sec rest jog
-page 187 Train Hard, Win Easy The Kenyan Way
Paul Tergat- 25x400 @ 60/61 and working down to 57 with 1 min rest
-page 231 Train Hard, Win Easy The Kenyan Way
I pretty confident that Komen's workout would have been in sets, not 15 straight. I've worked out with Kim's group many times and it was always in sets with 60sec rec (normally under 60sec, as as soon as you said, 10 sec to go, the Kenyan's would normally take off!)
This is also in line with what Bob Kennedy has mentioned in his workouts with them:
July 17/1996: am- Track, 3 mile warm-up
4*400m (:59.6, :59.2, :58.1, :59.7)(:55) (3:00)
4*400m (:59.6, :59.4, :59.1, :58.1)(:55) (3:00)
4*400m (:59.0, :58.8, ;59.5, :58.1)(:55) - 2 mile cool down
I've also done a work out with Noah Ngeny 6 weeks before he ran 3:43 (Mile) and he did 3x4x400 and averaged 56sec for all of them (only one of them was low 55) at Stanford in 1999 (that was his average, not mine - I couldn't finish the workout as I blew after the 2nd set). So, if Noah can run 55/56's in sets of 4, I can't see anyone running 10 in 53/54 with 30 sec rest.
Believe it or not, some people do exaggerate their training times. Jut last night I heard a kid saying he did 4x400m with a minute rest in 53/54 sec - I timed some of his reps and none of them were near those times (closer to 57/58) and he was having a lot more than 60 sec recovery.
Everyone here says that 10x400 with 1:00 rest is the ultimate predictor of 1500/mile ability, like it's the gospel or something.
3:28 for 1500 is 55.46 seconds per 400.
Are you trying to tell me these guys could run TEN 55-second 400s in a row with just 1:00 rest between them??
When did Centro & Rupp run 3:28?[/quote]
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This is the best answer ever!!
Thank you, JRinaldi, for proving that 10 x 400 in 55 with 1 min rest can be done by the elites.
I remember working with Morceli in Gainesville in which he ran 8 x 400 in 52-53 (most 53s) with 57-58" rest (trying to make 2 min flies) and closing the last one in 50.2 hand-timed. Doug Brown and I were pumped.
youngcoach122 wrote:
JRinaldi wrote:No 1:49/3:42 guys can run 12x300 with 45-50sec rest and average 39sec. I'd venture to say they'd struggle to run 12x200m at the same pace (26) with 45sec rest. They may have finished the last repeat in 39, but there is no way they averaged 39!
I've seen 3:28-3:32 guys do 12x300 in sets of 4 (3x4x300) and only ave 41sec. 41.23 is what I have written in my diary (I averaged 42.18)
Looks at this example for a 3:32 guys - slighly shorter rest, but again, he was only doing sets of 3x300 and was ave 40-41sec.
July 25/1990 - 3 x 3 x 300m rec. 30" w/800 btw sets(39”2 – 42” – 41”8 * 40”5 – 41”8 – 41”8 * 41”5 – 40” – 39”2)
Thank you JRinaldi. you're a coach, who knows what he's talking about! who's got great experience and currently coaches a 1:44 guy. The other guy is lying to us. a 1:49 guy would even struggle to complete a work out of 12X300 with 2:00-3:00 minutes recovery at an average of 39
Rinaldi is incorrect. Our top 800 group would do 200's with 30 seconds rest at 26 for as many reps as we could hold pace. Guys just barely sub 1:50 could do 12-14 while our top guy went up to 17 or 18. Granted he won a national title but still it's doable. Need to be speed oriented guys though
Elites have incredible lactate tolerance and recovery abilities. It's the reason why they can win a race and immediately take a brisk victory lap while smiling and waving, while a normal person may be bent over struggling to breathe. I can do 10x400 at my mile pace with 1:00 rest. It's a very difficult workout for me, about equivalent to actually racing a mile. Therefore, it's very possible that an infinitely more talented runner than me with awesome recovery capability such as Rupp could handle a few more reps, or do the workout at altitude. It also makes sense that El G could go faster than mile pace with half the rest, given that he was likely aided by a boatload of EPO in addition to his unbelievable talent.
That workout isn't that amazing. If your elite running 55 isn't that hard, and you can throw down.
no they can't wrote:
Just look at this workout:
http://www.flotrack.org/coverage/251075-Workout-Wednesday-Season-8/video/730801-Rupp-Levins-Cain-and-Moser-Huge-workout-after-BU-RecordsmovRupp and Levins:
2 x 800/400 (2:00/54)
2-3 x 400 (54s)
And this is with MASSIVE REST. Rupp BAILS on the last 400.
And you're saying he can do 10 400s straight at 1:00 rest??
BS.
NOBODY can do 10x400 at an ELITE race pace with a TRUE 1:00 rest. There is no proof of elites managing this. Amateurs who have just haven't raced near their potential yet so they don't even know real RACE PACE.
Did anyone point out that Rupp and Levins raced before that workout?
Dude......55 is 1500 race pace for some. How could they NOT do that pace for 10x400? I was a 3:57 guy and I could do many 63s with rests.
Kd11 and Jrinaldi: I appreciate your input. Would it be possible to start another thread with more of your Kim McDonald and Morceli experiences?
Rinaldi is incorrect. Our top 800 group would do 200's with 30 seconds rest at 26 for as many reps as we could hold pace. Guys just barely sub 1:50 could do 12-14 while our top guy went up to 17 or 18. Granted he won a national title but still it's doable. Need to be speed oriented guys though
I find it very hard to believe a guy who can't just break 1:50 run run 14x200m with 30sec recovery in 26sec. If you have guys that can run that workout and can't run 1:45, it's very poor coaching as something has gone wrong with the other workouts to prevent them from reaching their potential. I'd be happy if my 1:44 athlete ran 14-15x200 in 26 with 30sec recovery.
I remember Rich Kenah talking about a workout he heard Kipketer had run of 20x200m in 26 with 60sec recovery and he thought that was amazing!
Anyway - at the end of the day, it's your PR that counts, so I guess all this talk about what people can run is useless.
Out of all the BS threads of here, this has to be the one with the most BS.
hahahaha wrote:
Former coach here.
I had a 13:50 runner (workout warrior) who ran 20*400m in 60.9 with 59 seconds rest. He had zero foot speed.
A 1:49/2:20/3:42 guy would run12*300s in 39 avg with 45-50 seconds rest walk.
You'd be surprised what good runners do in workouts. You'd be even more suprised what great ones do.
That last paragraph is extremely well stated.
My IQ lowered by 15 points reading this thread. wrote:
Out of all the BS threads of here, this has to be the one with the most BS.
Thank you for the bump, this thread is comedy gold.
A short time before his world record mile I saw Steve Cram run 10 x 400 with 1 min recovery - -5 in 55 and 5 in 56. He had a couple of people helping him by running alternate ones , one of whom was a 1-48 800 m runner Vince Wllson.