He shouldn't need to worry about breaking high school records. To him they will mean jack-squat a year from now.
When you are that good its wise to leave a little in the bank and hit full-cylinder around age 21.
He shouldn't need to worry about breaking high school records. To him they will mean jack-squat a year from now.
When you are that good its wise to leave a little in the bank and hit full-cylinder around age 21.
George Atlas wrote:
He shouldn't need to worry about breaking high school records. To him they will mean jack-squat a year from now.
When you are that good its wise to leave a little in the bank and hit full-cylinder around age 21.
Rupp always went for records. Ritz & Webb ran all out.
I've been to Portage many times and know the race director and staff. Pretty sure the course is accurate (at least within a small margin of error) and, as others have said, it's reasonably hilly. But the footing is firm and very good and times have always been fairly fast.
The weather wasn't great yesterday for Grant, but it should be noted that in 2000 when Ritz ran 14:41, it was pretty brutal: Cold, windy and even snow and hail during parts of the race. But Ritz was hammering like it was a championship. If you dig up photos of that race, it was sunny for part of it, too. I've also seen it 85 degrees in that meet ... early October Michigan weather can swing wildly.
As others have said, though, there aren't too many courses where Ritz couldn't have run sub-15 in 2000. And yes, MIS is ridiculously fast (except when it's cold or the wind gets crazy, which does happen), but it is 5k.
and what if they recruit wrote:
Stay in Michigan Grant! You will be a hero in Ann Arbor. And develop legend status in the state. With UofM's planned new indoor facilities (300m training track and banked 200m track) you will have the best money can buy to get key training done in the winter, but the cold will help keep you from running too hard Dec-March (as you would in Palo Alto), and you'll be strong for outdoors.
Sullivan has been through all of what you will face as a world class and intellectual 18yo. He was top 10 all four years at NCAA XC, and finished 5th at the IAAF World Champs 1500m while still at UofM. He then proceeded to have a long career as a pro and even ran 3.32 as a 32yo. He knows what it takes to train for early success, while prepping for a long career without burnout. This will keep you humble, and eager to learn as you push for the Rio and Tokyo Olympics while still in College.
UM would not be a bad choice.
The thing Fisher needs to know this year is that he will be good no matter where he goes. Talent like that will shine through anywhere. In my mind, he should be thinking about 3 important things:
1.) which program will offer the best development long term, give the best shot at olympics and a long and prosperous professional career? There are a few places. I would say that Colorado and Oregon are the best places. Every Footlocker champ colorado has had has been both NCAA XC champ and an olympian. What other programs can say this? They have multiple other olympians who were decent in HS but not highly recruited, multiple all americans, on and on ad nauseam. Oregon also has a great track record, but there is a slightly higher chance of underperforming here. More so for stanford. I'm still a fan of OK state too.
2.) Which team will offer the best chemistry, where will he fit in and get along with everyone the best?- Team chemistry is one of the most important things for successful training and competing. You want to be pushed, but not have every practice be a race. You want a close knit team who collectively want to win and perform well individually without trying to prove something every day in practice. Noone except the top 9 guys on that team can provide input on that. This cannot be overemphasized in someone like Fisher, who may be top-dog, but may be #2-3 in the summer fall and get in over his head every day at practice. If the guys are patient and a true team, they will help guide him and not turn every workout into a race. Everyone will perform better due to this.
3.) academics: I have no clue what Fisher wants to study, but college is what you make of it. If he wants to be a banker, than stanford, an Ivy, or wharton are all great options but aren't necessarily the best for his running career. If he wants science, then anywhere will do, although colorado is renown for physics, Molecular biology, chemistry, and engineering. If he wants pre-law, again this is like the aforementioned business schools. Anything else who cares, anywhere will do if he puts effort forth.
GF- If by chance you read this, stick with your gestalt. Go where you feel is a good fit. That is where the best, happiest, and most consistent training and racing occurs. Don't let yourself be pressured by other peoples wishes. Best of luck and go get em!
yeasssuh wrote:
...Don't let yourself be pressured by other peoples wishes...
Yea, because so many of us have a vested interest. And those coaches offering opportunities & scholarships- ba$.tards!
Fisher said in a interview he wants warm weather which certainly isn't Ann Arbor, MI these days ( GLOBAL WARMING???)
It would be great for GF to stay in MI and run there. I also hope he breaks 4 this year. Giving up Soccer was a great idea. Glad he figured that out sooner than later.
Hard to compare Fisher with Ritz. Different types but both very talented obviously.
I think that we all realize that what Fisher did on Saturday is very remarkable. Regardless of the difficulty level of a course, or the distance, it's fair to say that Fisher is in the same league that Ritz was during high school. In regards to Fisher's race and the conditions...they were very similar to what Ritz experienced. Ritz ran his record on a sub 40 degree day, where we saw rain, sleet and snow...even a glimpse of the sun. Fisher ran in low 40's windy and with a damp course, but not sloppy. The Portage course is on a piece of land that has sand based soil, so the water drains well.
Fast/short/accurate courses seem to be a hot topic this year, at least in Michigan. This is mainly because many of us get lost in the hypothetical meets on Athletic.net. We forget that cross country is not track, and courses are different from one to the next. The same course can run entirely different based upon the time of the year, the level of competition in the race, etc. I have seen my own kids run much slower in a jamboree held on the same course the Wednesday before the Portage Invite, then turn around and run a season best on that Saturday.
What nobody here has made mention of in regards to the course is a slight change at the north end around the 600 meter mark, where the course turns into the woods and goes downhill sooner than it used to. This resulted in having to bring turns out more, in order to gain back some distance lost in making the course change (13 meters). The reason for the change was that we wanted to avoid runner traffic going in the opposite directions (east and west) at the north most point on the course.
Back to Fisher...what a great race to see and how many kids in that race and races before crack the top 20 all-time list.
Top 20 List:
http://www.portageinvite.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/High-School-Top-20-Individuals-2013.pdf
Past Champions:
http://www.portageinvite.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Portage-Invitational-History.pdf
George Atlas wrote:
Carl the greens keeper wrote:Michigan is a great State for Cross Country and Grant is outstanding but do not get too excited about times. West Michigan has a group of coaches that do everything in their power to create "speed courses". For this group it is all about times and very little to do with competition. Short courses are the norm.
That seems to be the trend these days. Coaches seem to want their kids hitting "Prs" in cross country these days and hard courses at the high school level are avoided.
I don't know about the Portage Course in Michigan but I have noticed the trend of manipulating high school cross country major meet courses in making them faster the last 30 years.
This is true. I have been to the MIS meet several times and I was there the day that Ritz ran 14:10. I asked the guy doing the commentating (who is a well-known road course certifier) if he measured the course and he said NO. I asked him if he saw someone measure the course and he said, "I assume that somebody did it?"
Now you can't certify a XC course, but somebody should be measuring it out every year, it should be measured twice or three times really.
However, I believe that the course (that year) was accurate, because Ritz ran 14:10 and beat Chris Toloff by 51 seconds (15:01) and Tim Moore by more (15:09). Moore won Footlocker the next year.
Also, Ritz hit the 800m mark at 2:08.
All of that DOES NOT mean it was a legit 14:10, and YES it is a smooth, hard, and pancake flat course, but considering that Ritz went on to run 13:52 and 13:44 on the track the next spring, I believe he could hit 25 seconds slower on such a fast XC course.
Saw Ritz's 14:10 from the press truck at MIS that year, and his 14:21 on a flat course at regionals two weeks earlier. Ran balls-out in both races, even though no one else was in sight of him.
MIS was like track on grass when he killed the course record by 40 seconds in his senior season. If wet the course slows a lot, but it was ideal that year. The next two runners were Novi High School: senior Chris Toloff (15:02), who went on to Michigan State, and junior Tim Moore (15:03), who won Footlocker Nationals the next year (edging then HS junior Chris Solinsky), who went on to Notre Dame.
Portage is hillier than MIS and typically not as fast, but its footing holds up better in wet conditions. Grant Fisher is the best talent I have seen in Michigan since Ritz, but his coach Mike Scannell favors doing what you need to win more than Ritz' HS coaches (especially Brad Prins) liked him going for time.
He won by :55 over Toloff (15:05) and Moore (15:06).http://www.runmichigan.com/results/00/statefinals/lpxc/d1resboys.shtml
newname wrote:
This is true. I have been to the MIS meet several times and I was there the day that Ritz ran 14:10. I asked the guy doing the commentating (who is a well-known road course certifier) if he measured the course and he said NO. I asked him if he saw someone measure the course and he said, "I assume that somebody did it?"
Now you can't certify a XC course, but somebody should be measuring it out every year, it should be measured twice or three times really.
However, I believe that the course (that year) was accurate, because Ritz ran 14:10 and beat Chris Toloff by 51 seconds (15:01) and Tim Moore by more (15:09). Moore won Footlocker the next year.
Also, Ritz hit the 800m mark at 2:08.
All of that DOES NOT mean it was a legit 14:10, and YES it is a smooth, hard, and pancake flat course, but considering that Ritz went on to run 13:52 and 13:44 on the track the next spring, I believe he could hit 25 seconds slower on such a fast XC course.
Anybody notice 9th place in the Div 1 race?
9. Cole Johnson / Rockford / grade 9 / 15:41
Damn. We may be talking about him in a couple years.
The State Meet in Brooklyn, Michigan is accurate. Don't believe me, wheel it for yourself. Dathan went by 2 miles in 8:58, alone and running with pure guts, not worrying about what he would run at the next meet. He ran 14:10 for 5,000 meters, believe it or not. He recovered and ran a great in Florida. "speed courses"???? Ever hear of Cass Benton? Ever run Old Skool??? You're misleading many and your point is total BS.
Carl the greens keeper wrote:
Michigan is a great State for Cross Country and Grant is outstanding but do not get too excited about times. West Michigan has a group of coaches that do everything in their power to create "speed courses". For this group it is all about times and very little to do with competition. Short courses are the norm.
But before Florida he ran a boss new record at Kenosha cutting 20 seconds from his own junior year race of 14:55. 14:35 at Kenosha is insane.
Liar, liar, liar.... wrote:
The State Meet in Brooklyn, Michigan is accurate. Don't believe me, wheel it for yourself. Dathan went by 2 miles in 8:58, alone and running with pure guts, not worrying about what he would run at the next meet. He ran 14:10 for 5,000 meters, believe it or not. He recovered and ran a great in Florida.
Actually, he was just about a second off the record. The record is 14:41.9.
Redhead wrote:
But before Florida he ran a boss new record at Kenosha cutting 20 seconds from his own junior year race of 14:55. 14:35 at Kenosha is insane.
Agreed. I saw that Kenosha race. Ritz blew away from Tegenkamp and Sage. Sage had run 1300 miles over the summer and he was devastated after that race.
Liar, liar, liar.... wrote:
The State Meet in Brooklyn, Michigan is accurate. Don't believe me, wheel it for yourself. Dathan went by 2 miles in 8:58, alone and running with pure guts, not worrying about what he would run at the next meet. He ran 14:10 for 5,000 meters, believe it or not. He recovered and ran a great in Florida.
"speed courses"???? Ever hear of Cass Benton? Ever run Old Skool??? You're misleading many and your point is total BS.
Carl the greens keeper wrote:Michigan is a great State for Cross Country and Grant is outstanding but do not get too excited about times. West Michigan has a group of coaches that do everything in their power to create "speed courses". For this group it is all about times and very little to do with competition. Short courses are the norm.
Dont forget kensington!
runner53412874687623e wrote:
Liar, liar, liar.... wrote:The State Meet in Brooklyn, Michigan is accurate. Don't believe me, wheel it for yourself. Dathan went by 2 miles in 8:58, alone and running with pure guts, not worrying about what he would run at the next meet. He ran 14:10 for 5,000 meters, believe it or not. He recovered and ran a great in Florida.
"speed courses"???? Ever hear of Cass Benton? Ever run Old Skool??? You're misleading many and your point is total BS.
Dont forget kensington!
Yes, there are many others including Kensington.
Sorry, but that poster just pissed me off! Michigan has many tough legitimate courses...that are accurate!
Carl was critical of WEST MICHIGAN. Every course that you mentioned is from the East side of Michigan.
frothy wrote:
Redhead wrote:But before Florida he ran a boss new record at Kenosha cutting 20 seconds from his own junior year race of 14:55. 14:35 at Kenosha is insane.
Agreed. I saw that Kenosha race. Ritz blew away from Tegenkamp and Sage. Sage had run 1300 miles over the summer and he was devastated after that race.
And THAT was the 14:55 race!!!
It's always difficult to compare XC courses. Those 3 do seem to be on the most difficult records to break list. 14:10 is extremely fast for 5k HS XC - flat or not. What is the number two time. Who were some of the other studs to run the course.
German's time is 14 seconds faster than any other CA runner in the past 30 years (prior to that 2 miles was the norm). This includes the likes of Meb, Ryan Hall, Eric Reynolds, Marc Davis. However, none the older stud's ran the course - Eric Hulst, Thom Hunt, Jeff Nelson. Let alone guys like Ritz, Virgin, etc.
Virgin's CR was considered unbreakable, but Derrick got within a few seconds and from what I recall hearing the course Derrick ran was slightly longer. Then again, both are high on any all time HS list, as is Ritz, German, and probably Fisher by the end of this year.