"Quality" work (VO2Max) not working so well

5x1600 is doable for pro runners. For high school girls it is ridicoulous. Use 5x1000 as hardest workout with 400m jog (2,5 to 3 minutes).

I notice that I can run much more miles at high intensity now than some time ago. I think it is because my overall mileage is higher and I can recover fast between intervals.

Last week 30x200 at 3k pace was easy. 12x400 at 3k pace also easy.

My favorite season of training was with a coach who posts here occasionally, sisyphus. (It was only one season because I am injury prone and am not running at the moment - that's another story). Our partnership began while I was injured and we spent the whole year working around the injury while getting me back in shape. I enjoyed the training because it was different than anything I'd done before but I still got very fit. Here is a snapshot of the progression of quality work not including all the easy mileage and strides:

8/1 - 3 mile tempo at 6:19 pace

8/11 - 7.5 miles at 8:00 pace

8/15 - 2 miles at 6:20 pace

8/16 - 8 miles at 7:30 pace

8/18 - 10 miles at 7:40 pace

8/22 - 3 miles at 6:20 pace

8/25 - 10 miles at 7:40 pace

8/27 - 1.5 miles at 6:40 pace + 10x30 sec on/30 sec off with on's at 5 min pace

8/29 - 2x2 miles at 6:18 pace with 10 min jog in between

8/31 - 5x1 min on/1 min off at 5 min pace

*****9/3 - 5k in 16:48 (5:24 pace)

9/5 - 8 miles at 7:40 pace

9/8 - 10 miles at 7:40 pace

9/10 - 8x1 min on/1 min off at 5:20 pace

9/12 - 5 mile tempo at 6:00 pace

9/15 - 11 miles at 7:15 pace

9/19 - 3 mile tempo at 6:00 pace + 10x30 sec on/30 sec off with on's at 5 min pace

9/22 - 3 mile tempo at 6:00 pace + 10x30 sec on/30 sec off with on's at 5 min pace

9/25 - 15 min fartlek going easy-medium-hard every 30 seconds

9/28 - 4 mile tempo at 5:50 pace

10/3 - 10k cutdown from 7:00 pace to 5:45 pace

10/6 - 2 x 1 mile in 5:30 with 30 min run in between

10/9 - 6 miles at 6:40 pace

10/15 - 10x1 min on/1 min off with on's at 5 min pace

10/18 - 5x800 averaging 2:38 with 200 jog averaging 57

*****10/21 - Hilly 5k race in 16:52 (5:25 pace)

10/25 - 5 mile tempo at 5:55 pace

10/27 - 4 miles in 24:00, alternating 200's in 39 & 51

10/28 - 10.5 miles at 7:40 pace

11/3 - 2.5 mile time trial with hard final 800. 3200 at 5:30 pace then 800 in 2:14.

11/4 - 10.5 miles at 7:40 pace

11/7 - 8x400 with 200 recovery except the last rep is a 600 where the final 200 you kick for home. 400's averaged 77, 200's averaged 50. Final 200 in 32.

11/10 - 6 mile tempo at 6:00 pace

11/13 - 3 mile tempo where you do a fast stride-out every 800 meters. Averaged out to 5:50 pace.

11/15 - 6 mile tempo at 5:50 pace

11/17 - 12x400 with 1 min standing rest. First 8 averaged 72. Last 4 averaged 66.

11/18 - 10.5 miles at 7:40 pace

*****11/22 - 5k race in 16:04 (5:10 pace)

11/24 - 11 miles at 7:15 pace

11/27 - 3.5 miles at 5:45 pace

11/29 - 3x1600 with 400 jog. On each rep 5:20 pace through 1200 meters, then last lap in 75. Averaged 5:15's.

*****12/2 - 3.5 mile race at 5:14 pace

12/4 - 5 mile subtempo at 6:00 pace

12/7 - 5 mile subtempo at 6:05 pace

12/9 - 11.5 miles at 7:50 pace

12/12 - 60 min run including 6 hill bursts of 25-40 seconds

12/14 - 60 min run including 2x8x20 second hill bursts

12/16 - 12 miles at 7:30 pace

12/18 - 6 mile subtempo at 6:00 pace

12/22 - 3 mile subtempo at 6:00 pace + 4x400 in 67 with 1 min standing rest

12/23 - 11 miles at 7:15 pace

12/25 - 6 mile subtempo at 6:10 pace

12/26 - 2x1600 in 5:00, then 2x800 in 2:21. 800 jog after 1600’s, 400 jog after 800’s.

12/28 - 6 mile subtempo at 6:10 pace

12/29 - 4x1000 at 5:32 pace with 200 recovery in 51 + 12x200 in 32 with 2 min walking between

12/30 - 11 miles at 8:10 pace

1/2 - 5 x 3 min on/2 min off. On’s at 5:20 pace + 10x30 sec on/30 sec off with on's at 5 min pace

*****1/5 - 1 mile race in 4:24

This only takes us from my first fall 5k to my first indoor track race. There were other fun workouts and races that year, and I eventually ran 15:27 for 5k in March, 1:55 for 800 in March, and 3:58 for 1500 in June. But I think my main point in posting this was that you can get good results, even at the middle distances, without killing yourself with workouts.

fan of US distance running wrote:

l;hjn wrote:

yes, and that is a problem. asking a 18 min 5k'er to do 2k reps at 5k pace is a long time to be at 5k pace.

I never said she should do 2k reps. I merely posted a workout el g's group did after malmo said 5x1600 was insane.

fair, i didn't read that correctly, but just wanted to point out how insanely hard that type of workout really is.

l;hjn wrote:

each 2k is going to take just over 7 minutes per 2k, so the runner is going to be spending almost 30 minutes at 5k pace?

5:10 per 2k is is 40% of 12:55

7:12 per 2k is 40% of 18:00[/quote]

yes i know, and 7:12 at 5k pace is going to be damn hard for anyone. that was more the point, that 4x7min at 5k effort is not going to happen. 40% of 5k pace for each of those is not equal, 2 extra minutes per rep at that effort, no thanks.

Aubz wrote:

Isn't 2 mile race pace closer to Vo2 max pace than 5k pace?

So that's why I wasn't national class. I should have done 4xMile at my PR 4:16 2 mile pace rather than averaging 4:40.

I'm not a believer in using that Daniels pace pyramid where you only do workouts at Vo2Max, Threshold, etc. and every other pace is considered garbage. But what do I know. I was only a sub-14 guy and everyone else here runs sub-13.

Great post middle distance guy! What kind of easy running were you doing between the dates you gave? I'm curious now. Thanks for sharing!

Why would a coach have a hs girl do 5 x 1 mile? The problem there is the coach.

ferritin is not as good as knowing the hemoglobin value. I tested an Olympic champion for 5 years and his ferritin was always between 22 and 29 and many people would say under 30 is bad

hs girl.. wrote:

Why would a coach have a hs girl do 5 x 1 mile? The problem there is the coach.

So our head coach likes mile repeats (He's a vigil guy), what is a good number and pace, rest, etc. or HS boys and girls?

Mandu wrote:

hs girl.. wrote:

Why would a coach have a hs girl do 5 x 1 mile? The problem there is the coach.

So our head coach likes mile repeats (He's a vigil guy), what is a good number and pace, rest, etc. or HS boys and girls?

How long are your races? What is the background of your runners? What ages are your runners? How many miles per week do your runners run? Does the mileage vary from grade to grade? Is there a plan and progression?

With my team i always did 3-4x1600 at 5k pace with 400m jog 3min or so and only faster boys did the 4 repeats who had experience. Last year I did 4-6x1200 at 5k pace with 400m jog. Newbies and slower runners did 4, faster girls and some boys did 5 and faster boys did 6 with experience.

Mandu wrote:

hs girl.. wrote:

Why would a coach have a hs girl do 5 x 1 mile? The problem there is the coach.

So our head coach likes mile repeats (He's a vigil guy), what is a good number and pace, rest, etc. or HS boys and girls?

Vigil is a great coach, so is Daniels. The issue isn't the workouts they used, it is how other people interpret them. 5x1600 on a 2min jog for a 13 flat guy at vV02 is very different then the same for a 20 min runner, boy or girl. Also Daniels would never have used it either as he discovered that running vV02 intervals for longer then 5min was counterproductive due to the lactic acid buildup. So if you vV02 is slower then 5min, per Daniels, you stop at 5min and recover. Also, the volume of that workout at that intensity is probably juuuust a little much for a 35mpw runner. And... Vigil used 3min recoveries for the most part, not 4. I'm not answering your original question, just clearing things up. You can hopefully use that information to design your own workout.

Fwiw, v02 work can be overrated as others have pointed out and can burn runners out when done wrong.

Jman1 wrote:

Great post middle distance guy! What kind of easy running were you doing between the dates you gave? I'm curious now. Thanks for sharing!

Because I was injury prone we decided on 5 days of running, 2 days of cross training. I got up to 40-45 miles per week.

Many of those tempo and subtempo runs were contained within a 60 minute run. Easy days could be 40 minutes at 8 min pace. There were also lots of easy runs with strides that I didn't bother to list.

But overall I felt like some keys were:

- Subtempo runs. If my tempo fitness was 5:40-5:45 pace, subtempo might mean 6:00 to 6:10

- Tempos and intervals where I finished fast

- Long runs

- Intervals where I had to run a fast pace for recovery (notice the 200 jog recovery in 50, that's 6:40 pace)

- Not every workout was maximum effort. I might do a 5 mile tempo one day, then a week later run 3 miles at that same pace, which is still a stimulus but obviously controlled. On these "medium" days you can also get in a little faster work too.

But I was only the athlete, not the mastermind.

Mandu wrote:

So our head coach likes mile repeats (He's a vigil guy), what is a good number and pace, rest, etc. or HS boys and girls?

I like 10k pace most of the time. Since your high school kids never race 10k just consider this halfway between 5k and tempo pace.

Another training lesson I've learned unrelated to my coach sisyphus was that I would always make solid gains for several months doing 200's at 800 pace, 300's & 400's at mile pace, 800's at 5k pace, and 1600's at 10k pace.

Then when spring rolled around I would try to turn things up a notch - 400's at 800 pace, 600's at mile pace, 1600's at 5k pace. I would always burn out. I'm convinced that if I'd stuck with the tried and true, but raced a little more and reduced my volume a little, I'd have peaked perfectly.

How long are your races? What is the background of your runners? What ages are your runners? How many miles per week do your runners run? Does the mileage vary from grade to grade? Is there a plan and progression?[/quote]

Girls run 4K, Boys 5K. runners come into to 9th grade with little to no running background so they are in put into two groups, newbies and those with 2 years running experience.

Mileage (girls) is 22-25 MPW for freshmen to 38-40 for seniors. somewhat low but head coach is more about quality than quantity. Boys don't do much more.

agip wrote:

Manchester wrote:

They averaged out to a 26:37 10K so they were closer to 10K pace than anything else. Also, they had about 4 minutes of recovery between each, not 2.

huh? from flotrack, the miles were

5 x mile (400m rest in-between)

4:21, 4:20, 4:20, 4:16, and 4:01

which average to 4:15.6, or 13:14/26:28 pace

So it is what it is - a little slower than 5k pace or a little faster than 10k pace.

not sure about the rest

You can´t count the last one when you´re calculating his average. He took a slow 400 jog between the first 4, then he took a very long rest before the last.

I'm flattered you would put me in this select group. My achievements are on another scale though.I have to echo what the others already said. 5x1 mile of volume at 5K pace is too much volume and/or too fast. You should- slow down the reps (e.g. 10K pace)- shorten the reps (e.g. 1K reps)- drop 1 rep (e.g. (4x1 mile)- any combination of some or all of the aboveWhen I plan VO2max workouts, for me, or for high school, these are my guidelines:- target pace is not faster than total volume race pace (5 miles of rep = 5 mile race pace)- for 5K race targets, 3-5K of total volume- if the race target is 10K, up to 8-10K of volume, closer to the race, but also at a slower 10-12K or 10 mile pace.My guideline for any kind of interval training:- the last few reps should be as fast as the firstListen to personal feedback. Even assuming, for the sake of argument, that 5x1mile at 5K pace is a trivial weekly workout for most mortals, if she's dying on the 4th and 5th rep, it's not a good workout for her. It's not better than if you had planned 3x1 mile.If you (or the coach) insists on 5x1 mile repeats, these are better done at 8-10K pace. Even then, if she cannot complete the last reps, slow down. The goal should be to finish the last reps as fast as the first. Maybe the speed will improve later, but it shouldn't be forced from the top, but rather you should let it happen from the bottom.Antonio has a great story about Carlos Lopes doing 400m repeats some 5-10 seconds slower than his much younger teammates, who viewed this as a sign of weakness in the ageing athlete. Lopes then went on to win World Cross country later that week. (My memory may be fuzzy -- forgive any errors).

Mandu wrote:

Training response question for coaches and distinguished posters (jtupper, rekrunner, runningart, canova, malmo,etc)

We have a young female athlete (female, HS Junior) who has been running for two years with good success. She has run well early in the season off of mostly medium length aerobic runs and short fast strides. She also responds well to short fast reps (200M-400M)combined with longer easy runs.

However, she quickly breaks down with VO2Max type work, longer repeats at around 5K pace. She does not get injured as she is physically strong, just gets tired easily, has trouble recovering and gets sick. Her times have slowed with VO2Max work as the season goes on.

Her best times are 5:18 (1600), 2:25 (800) and averages 6:10 to 6:20 per mile on XC courses when feeling good.

Has anybody had experience with an athlete like this?

Thanks in advance.

The volume of VO2Max may be too high, don't forget that racing is also VO2Max work. Total VO2Max should be about 3 miles so racing once a week is all shes needs at 35 miles per week.

from MyRunCoach app

fan of US distance running wrote:

4x2000, 2 min rest @ 5k pace

6x1000, 2 min rest @ 3k pace

these are workouts el guerrouj did regularly. obviously someone else isn't going to be doing them at the paces his group did, but they are manageable when done at one's own pace.

definitely not an insane workout. difficult, yes. but that is the point.

You aren't getting it. It is ridiculously insane to do those workouts. Citing what ElGuerrouj does isn't even related to what a National caliber athlete does. A high school girl, the relation is even more distant.

The world-class athletes at the far end of the spectrum (top 10-20 all-time) have a blood lactate curve that pushes way out to the right. No matter what velocity it seems that they do not have a rapid accumulation of blood lactate.

At my very best, there is no way I could ever do 5 x 1 mile at 5k pace with 2:00 rest. No way in hell. And I was well- known by my peers for being able to handle almost any workload.

To the OP: do not listen to any of these posters claiming that your runner should be able to do this workout. They do not have a clue what they are talking about.

Straw M Thoroughman wrote:

Yes. There are dozens of athletes like that out there. Me included.

Proponents of V02 work will tell you to keep hammering away because athletes "have" to do this type of work. It's in the rules.

Van Aaken method for her all the way. There are threads on here pertaining to "no interval work" success. Check them out.

Just chiming in as a second person like this. I can sometimes handle V02max work for a few extra weeks if I stay out of the 3k-8k pace range. I can do some short 1500m pace work, and otherwise keep it slower. I once made it through a whole season by doing 1500m pace work once a week and a half marathon build, then ran my biggest 5k pb and still my current pb off of one V02max workout at 5k race pace around 1 week out, which ended up being exactly my race pace. Over the years I've found that if I run in the 3k-8k pace range I can guarantee I have 2-4 weeks before I'm done.

I have a vague recollection of reading a book (either Healthy Intelligent Training, or maybe a Lydiard book) where the coach had two junior runners with 800m pbs around 1:50-1:52 and one of them thrived off of fast work and the other would peak within a couple of weeks if he did it, so he had to coach them differently. So there are others out there.