Which was more impressive Killians Hardrock CR or Emma Coburn's AR

jornetski wrote:

RunTiger wrote:

The simple fact is that there are 14 year old girls who would beat this guy in a mile race.

Can 14 year old girls summit Denali from base camp in under 10 hours?

Can they climb like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwyFPb1VRx4

Or ski like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lNQ_PWx7bg

What I like about Kilian is that he's a very multidimensional endurance athlete. I get the feeling that Kilian is going to be enjoying the mountains long after his racing is over. While some other runners who are obsessed about on this board will quit running running and athletic pursuits shortly after they win State or NCAAs.

Who knows? We're talking about distance running here, not mountain climbing. Try to keep up.

Let me clear some things up:

1) Kilian is closer to 5'5-5'6"

2) Only a couple hundred runners have attempted and finished Hardrock (and less than 12 countries represented EVER), where as literally thousands of each country's most talented distance females have attempted the Steeplechase.

A 9:11 WSC has the historical statistical data to back it up that it is more "impressive," also due to the fact that it is an Olympic sport.

Kilian would have difficulty running a mile in under 4:30.

[quote]Dyron H. wrote:

Thanks to resorting to name calling, now I see your side of the issue and totally agree with you. LOL.

You seem stuck on the concept that if something is longer or goes up a mountain, it must be harder.

There are plenty of people who don't want to do Hardrock (even if they've actually heard of it) not because it is "hard" but it just seems arbitrary and pointless to them.

Why not 200 miles!? Why not have them do some rifle shooting in the middle!? End with a flaming mud pit!

And, sure, there are people who have no interest in running the steeplechase for similar reasons. The point is, there are a lot more people interested in running the Steeplechase fast and it is run on a standard track so to set the AR, Emma was competing against every American woman who has ever run the Steeplechase anywhere on the planet.

Are we really comparing that to a course record in an event that most people, even runners, have never heard of, at a distance that has a very very small field size to begin with?

[quote]

right, because track is so f*cking mainstream right now. jornet was named nat geo's adventurer of the year... i'm gonna go out on a limb and say he's internationally a much, much bigger name than emma coburn. it's apples and oranges though, so whatever.

ByronP wrote:

Let me clear some things up:

1) Kilian is closer to 5'5-5'6"

2) Only a couple hundred runners have attempted and finished Hardrock (and less than 12 countries represented EVER), where as literally thousands of each country's most talented distance females have attempted the Steeplechase.

A 9:11 WSC has the historical statistical data to back it up that it is more "impressive," also due to the fact that it is an Olympic sport.

Kilian would have difficulty running a mile in under 4:30.

he'd probably have difficulty running a mile under 4:30 without training for it, but with a little bit of specific training, he'd have no problem. that's why you just can't compare this stuff, because he's not going to train for that, and a steeplchaser isn't going to train for a hundred. guys like max king and sage obviously have put in the work to run long distances, but it took them a couple years to get there. if you don't think kilian could put up a ~4 minute mile with a year or two of training, i pretty much guarantee you're wrong.

Thanks for the clarification, nbskis.

It is proper to designate Kilian as an Adventurer as opposed to a "runner". Many on this board do not understand that Kilian is not a "runner", but an adventurer and ultra endurance athlete with a unique skill set. We have all seen Kilian not be able to compete on flat, road-like sections of races with many inferior athletes, but in his domain, his is virtually untouchable.

ByronP wrote:

Thanks for the clarification, nbskis.

It is proper to designate Kilian as an Adventurer as opposed to a "runner". Many on this board do not understand that Kilian is not a "runner", but an adventurer and ultra endurance athlete with a unique skill set. We have all seen Kilian not be able to compete on flat, road-like sections of races with many inferior athletes, but in his domain, his is virtually untouchable.

that was a really weak move on his part at UROC, i definitely lost some respect for him with that, but with his records this year that's all but forgotten. if you want some indication of how he'd fare at mid distance stuff, look at his vertical kilometer background.

This could become the tread of the year, if not decade. It goes to the crux of the culture war between hobby joggers/ultra freaks and elite running. The joggers are winning by sheer force of numbers, but GD some of them are incredibly slow!

Cultural wars wrote:

This could become the tread of the year, if not decade. It goes to the crux of the culture war between hobby joggers/ultra freaks and elite running. The joggers are winning by sheer force of numbers, but GD some of them are incredibly slow!

there are more people than you know taking traditional training techniques and applying to ultra and mountain running. you won't see them setting PRs at half marathons and 10ks because they don't give a f*ck.

nbskis wrote:

Cultural wars wrote:

This could become the tread of the year, if not decade. It goes to the crux of the culture war between hobby joggers/ultra freaks and elite running. The joggers are winning by sheer force of numbers, but GD some of them are incredibly slow!

there are more people than you know taking traditional training techniques and applying to ultra and mountain running. you won't see them setting PRs at half marathons and 10ks because they don't give a f*ck.

Don't get me wrong I am all for guys like Max King or Joe Gray mixing it up and kicking butt.

Tired of 25 min 5K / 4:10 marathoners yapping about how awesome they are at 50 or 100 milers. Plodding along with their jogger fan base.

And for every one of those ultra heroes that don't give a fvck about setting a half marathon PR there are 5000 half marathoners that feel the same way about ultras.

First off, 3 totally different sports IMHO:

There's the track and road, there's trail racing (could be cross country or ultra marathon distance)...and then there are the mountain races. All can be very painful and hard of course.

Let's put the vertical K and SkyRunning races (although usually shorter than an ultra) in the Hard Rock category with all the other Euro-style mountain races. These often involve steep slopes, a lot of times at altitude and a lot of power hiking. They also can involve steep descents that are off-trail on gnarly rocks (technical trail) or lose sand/snow etc. This is Killian's niche.

Then we have 3 main systems that are being challenged in the body (and this is a big generalization):

1. The Aerobic System (heart, lungs, Vo2max, Lactate Threshold, etc)

2. The skeletal muscular system (muscles, tendons, bones etc.)

3. The metabolic system (i.e. fat burning, nutritional stuff etc).

Now these three systems all work together and influence each other of course during training and racing.

So what makes Killian so dominant? Well, for system #1 we see he has a Vo2max of around 90 (off the charts). I don't know how it was measured but guys that ski often have a pretty high VO2max (he is about 5'7" and 125-130lbs if I had to guess).

Now system #2 is where you see a big difference (IMHO). A lot of these mountain runner types (I do not consider myself a mountain runner type btw). Have developed (or were somewhat born with) the ability to move efficiently through rocky steps, on 20% slopes, up and down mountains. Through lots of vertical change in their training their leg muscles seemingly do not break down from flying up and down mountains for thousands of feet on end as the hours tick by. They also have likely developed neuromuscular pathways for running economy (or shall I say power hiking economy too) for conquering steep hills and uneven terrain.

The same strength that allows them to move really well on this type of uneven terrain up steep slopes is a curse when it comes to the running mechanics required to run on a flat and fast surface (i.e. road, track or any smooth trail for that matter). I think we saw what happened at UROC, and again we probably will never see Killian at The North Face 50, or Lake Sonoma, or Mt. WA even (or any road marathon etc) because it's too "runnable."

But on the other hand if you're a speedy track guy please come to Boulder and try to "run" up Mt. Sanitas from the very bottom to the summit in 14min (Killian's time) and see how you fair....(hint: it's a fairly technical trail).

System #3 comes down to the ability to burn fat as a fuel for ultra events, and to be able to stomach food while moving/not get dehydrated a really high altitude (in the case of Hard Rock). A lot of shorter distance, speedy track and road runners are more carb burning machines but this system can be trained for (i.e. Max King at Western States this year finally going the 100mi. distance and not crashing and burning too bad)

As I said in earlier posts on MUT Running, course profile is pretty much everything in these mountain-ultra-trail races. You don't get that on the track or in road marathons where the numbers are standard and you know what to expect. Totally different sports.

That being said, I've always lost to Killian head to head (Transvulcania, Sierre-Zinal, UROC). But then again, I was only mid-pack at the Olympic Trials..

So how about this for a thought provoking discussion though: who's getting paid more..Killian or Coburn? (I don't know) Consider Killian has 375,000+ Facebook fans and Emma has just under 9,000 right now....

ByronP wrote:

Let me clear some things up:

Kilian would have difficulty running a mile in under 4:30.

Let me clear some things up:

Emma would have difficulty running past 50 miles.

Let me get this straight ...

Cross-fit sucks - they are simply wimpy body builders.

Triathletes suck, Webb will dominate in his next race.

Cyclists suck, and if runners were to convert, they would be the best at it.

Sprinters are people who are too lazy to run more than one lap.

Any race over 26.2 miles is automatically a hike and any guy who ran under 5:15 for the mile or broke 20:00 for the infamously short XC course would automatically win, if they decided to run, if they even showed up.

Is there anything else to add?

simon peter wrote:

I've never heard of Hardrock.

I have heard of the Steeplechase.

I have heard of Hardrock. Until today, I thought the steeplechase was just something they made horses do.

If Emma did Hardrock would they put smaller rocks out there for her to run over?

theSausageKING wrote:

the skiing isnt very impressive, im sure plenty of 14 year old girls could show that guy how its done, climbing is pretty cool

jornetski wrote:

Can 14 year old girls summit Denali from base camp in under 10 hours?

Can they climb like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwyFPb1VRx4

Or ski like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lNQ_PWx7bg

What I like about Kilian is that he's a very multidimensional endurance athlete. I get the feeling that Kilian is going to be enjoying the mountains long after his racing is over. While some other runners who are obsessed about on this board will quit running running and athletic pursuits shortly after they win State or NCAAs.

The skiing doesn't look impressive, but keep in mind that he is:

Solo in relatively uncrowded Norwegian mountains. Help wouldn't come quickly if he messes up.

Skiing after climbing up.

Skiing on skinny rando race skis which means more carving required.

Might be skiing without a helmet.

Things usually look flatter in video than they do in real life.

nbskis wrote:

he'd probably have difficulty running a mile under 4:30 without training for it, but with a little bit of specific training, he'd have no problem. that's why you just can't compare this stuff, because he's not going to train for that, and a steeplchaser isn't going to train for a hundred.

I would guess maybe 5 flat. His pikes peak and UROC performance shows a significant drop in performance towards "runnable" events extrapolating from hardrock. You can't assume just because you can do 14 min/miles you can do 4 min/miles no matter how bored or uninterested you are.

I think ultras and ultra runners have a lot more in common with tris and triathletes than actual real runners.

The emphasis isn't on performance, it's just doing "more".

Comparing them to elite competitive runners is ridiculous.

The thread asks which is more impressive. Emma ran her race faster than Kilian could with a million years of training. With a year of training, I don't think Emma would have much problem beating Kilian at 100 miles. Didn't little Zola Budd just smash thousands of men at Comrades? She's 50 years old for fvcks sake!