Ryun - Brief Vid of Dusseldorf '67 : 11.6 / 36.5 ( incomplete ) finish now on Youtube

said88 wrote:

A good idea would be to try to get a video of the race. That's what I'm looking for. But RAI-TV really isn't very helpful...

When I get the video I won't post it to youtube.

Then I'm going to wank off to it every night, knowing that I'm the only person that has it.

Don't you see how laughable you act?

It's not that I don't believe you; I ask for context because it is always very important and, in this case, we don't have any. We don't know whether the number you wrote down originated from somebody in Aouita's camp or from an objective third party with some credentials as a split recorder.

The distinguishing characteristic of Dusseldorf '67 is its verifiability. That's what interests me, anyway. There are a lot of unverifiable statements about a lot of races and Grossetto '84, for now, is just one of those.

In looking for some info on Grosseto, I came up with a performance list for 1984 that shows the third place finisher recorded a time of 3:37.64 as a personal best.

If Aouita finished in 36, this third place finisher would most likely have had to finish in 38 something while running a PB. Not impossible but doesn't add to the credibility of the scenario.

Aouita never ran a 3:34 with a last 300 in 36.1.

Morceli was a much better kicker than Aouita and he never ran anything like that.

What Ryun shows in that Dusseldorf race is that he was a guy who never reached his potential. Bad luck and the altitude Olympics derailed a guy who was capable of of sub 3:50 in the mile and likely sub 3:30 almost 50 years ago. All this comparing of runners from different eras is a waste of time in many ways. The targets in each era are different. Ryun was a freak. Leave it at that.

ISBN wrote:You're an idiot.

Go fetch me a last 100 from Ryun in 12.5 in a 3:32 race! You can't because he never ran that fast

moron

& coe's 300m in that was a pathetic 39.03 !

coe's finish isn't even fastest :

asbel in a faster 3'31 has gone 12.4

Go fetch a 36.1 last 300 in a 3:34 race or even a last lap in 53 flat in a 3:46 mile for Ryun!

go fetch either cram or coe's 11.6/36.5 in a 3'38 ???

where are they ???

Ryun's penultimate lap in Dusseldorf was a slow 60 secs. Coe's previous 400 up to 1200 was 54 and bits. Completely different. Where is Ryun's 54 followed by a 38 and a last 100 of 12.1?

nonsense

what part of pathetic 38.7 finish for coe can't you comprehend ???

same finishing time but well over 2s slower last 300m

not only that, coe's 12.2 finish is barely same as Ryun average 100m for last 300m !!!

as for previous splits, your peabrain not comprehend coe went theu 800 in 2'05.1 whereas Ryun went thru in a much quicker 2'03.6

marcus t wrote:If that 37.8 for Coe in the 1989 World Cup at the end of his career is correct, pretty sure he could have managed a similar (or better) last 300 to Ryun during his peak 8 years earlier

err...

it was 38.05 & he lost

No, ISBN and Said88 are correct. 36.14 appeared in Athletics Weekly at time and also in another book I have which outlined the 84 season.

So you are completely and utterly wrong about it's made up or massaged provenance.

split taker wrote:

marcus t wrote:

If that 37.8 for Coe in the 1989 World Cup at the end of his career is correct, pretty sure he could have managed a similar (or better) last 300 to Ryun during his peak 8 years earlier. Didn't he allegedly run 11.3 in the last 100 of an 800? Who has run near that?

Coe didn't do that on a dirt track.

And the 11.3 you refer to was in an incredibly slow 800, something like 1:47.xx

But he ran his 37.8 in a race that was 3 sec faster than Ryun's, which more than cancels out the fact Ryun did it on dirt, and Coe was impeded on the last bend, costing him about 0.2. And it wasn't an attempt to burst suddenly at 300, it was a gradual increase in pace to try and draw sting out of Bile, who was no Norpoth or Bodo!

As for Coe's 11.3. It was in a 1:47 race, but that is equivalent to a 3:40 1500, so not far off a 3:38. He also ran a last 200 in a 1:47 in 24.1, running the entire last bend in lane 2 and easing up and waving at the end. If he'd been in lane 1 it would have been more like 23.6, and his finishing time would have been 1:46. That is as good as a 3:38 1500

As Ventolin said above, it was 38.05 and he lost. And again, on a synthetic surface.

1:47 on synthetic is equivalent 3:40 for 1500 on synthetic, not dirt. It would be much slower on dirt. And again, comparing to a shorter distance where splits are faster is stupid.

1:47 on synthetic is a pathetically slow time and certainly nothing to brag about, no matter how fast one's last 100 was.

You do talk a load of rubbish.

Ryun had 3 pretty even laps up to 1200m and his 3rd lap, which is the most important one in determining what is possible on the last lap, was around 59 sec. In fact the 400 from 700 to 1100 was 60 sec flat.

In Coe's Moscow race the first 2 laps were slower than Ryun's but the 3 rd lap was 4 to 5 sec faster. What part of your pickled brain does not comprehend this? From 800 m on each 100 section got faster and faster. It might have been the same finishing time as Ryun but it was a completely different race.

To state that because Ryun ran a 36.6 last 300 in a 3:38 he is much better than Coe who ran 38.7 in a 3:38 shows just how ignorant and skewed your analysis is. If you'd compared their last 100 or 700 or 800 Coe was faster. But you only focus on 1 split to try and make a point.

Also, as you have said on another thread in the past few days, running in a championship, his 6 th race in about 9 days, is not the same as running a 1 off race like Ryun's.

The fact that Coe was able to increase his pace considerably in the last 100 to 12.1 also underlines that he wasn't flat out for the entire lap. If he had to or chose to sprint all out over the last 300 then it would have been more like 37.8 in a 3:37.4, and his last 700m would have been run at 1:45 800 pace, about 4 or 5 secs faster than Ryun'scorresponding split.

Peer Mediator wrote:

No, ISBN and Said88 are correct. 36.14 appeared in Athletics Weekly at time and also in another book I have which outlined the 84 season.

So you are completely and utterly wrong about it's made up or massaged provenance.

Telling us the number "appeared" gives no basis for evaluation. How did it "appear"? Who said what exactly in Athletics Weekly or in this book you have?

And where is an account of the race that tells us how Aouita finished in 36 but only put 2 and a fraction seconds on an obscure third place finisher running a personal best?

The German dude licking his lips at :25 was scintillating, ebullient, rivetting, and compelling. Truly add to the whole experience of the video and hte video would be incomplete without that vignette.

Luis Tiant wrote:

Telling us the number "appeared" gives no basis for evaluation. How did it "appear"? Who said what exactly in Athletics Weekly or in this book you have?

And where is an account of the race that tells us how Aouita finished in 36 but only put 2 and a fraction seconds on an obscure third place finisher running a personal best?

It's often really not easy to discuss something on this forum.

Have you just read the (very) few other comments regarding the subject? It seems you havn't.

36,14 for Aouita's last 300m 1984 in Grossetto over 1500m was published in a few publications. It was not a "product" of this forum. This was the point - nothing more.

I think there is some consensus that people are sceptical if the time really is correct, since nobody on this board (as it seems) actually has seen the race and also nobody has seen a similar sprint time in a comparabel race (also Ryun's Düsseldorf split is not so far away from it).

The point about the 3rd place finisher is a good one. Actually the 2nd place finisher (Stefano Mei) was 2,54s behind, so should have an 300m-split of around 38,6, probably little slower, as he might have been in front. Also very fast for him in a 3:37,36 (he had a PB of 3:34,57 (1986) and a '84 SB of 3:36,62). I'm not quite sure of his sprint-qualities, but if I remember correctly he has had a good sprint. Not anything close to Aouita, but a good one. The difference of 2,54s from the last 300m sounds realistic to me, but both times seem still little bit too good. But an 300m split is taken at the starting line, not very difficult. Also the accuracy to the hundreth clearly is an indication that it was taken automatically. If Aouita was a few meters behind Mei (something he has done a few times) all sounds little bit more realistic.

But most is pure speculation, so at the moment we just have to accept that we don't know what really has happened... Little bit surprising I would say, that this absolutely famous sprint-time was not discussed any more back in 1984.

My point, that Aouita might have been a few meters behind when the split time was taken for sure is stupidity. His time for the last 300m would have been even better...

Peer Mediator is likely Deano.

Ryun was a talented runner who was absurdley trained. Give Ryun modern training methods and he'd have crushed Coe. And that's without injecting Bold and/or Winstrol like Coe and Aouita. Crammy and Ovett and Bile were clean, but Lord Coe and the Moroccan lying machine were both dopers.

Spacebar Jabber wrote:

Peer Mediator is likely Deano.

Ryun was a talented runner who was absurdley trained. Give Ryun modern training methods and he'd have crushed Coe. And that's without injecting Bold and/or Winstrol like Coe and Aouita. Crammy and Ovett and Bile were clean, but Lord Coe and the Moroccan lying machine were both dopers.

Maybe PM is Deano. Who cares what these pukey gap toothed smelly Brits think anyway? Look at their present crop of runners compared to lousy places like...like...like the US.

Elliott Rodgers wrote:

Aouita never ran a 3:34 with a last 300 in 36.1.

It's quoted on P. 59 of "International Running Guide 1985" edited by Mel Watman.

"Aouita produced the fastest ever finish to a high quality 1500m race when he was timed at 36.14 for the final 300m in a 3:34.82 victory at Grosseto.

Also mentioned on P.68 of Athletics Weekly (edition 28.7.1984) and again in the Sept 1st edition on P.59 in the list of results.

"1500: Aouita (Mor) 3:34.82 (36.14 last 300)"

So it's listed and corroborated in more than 1 place.

Unless you were there and timed it yourself, I don't think you're in a position to claim he didn't as a fact.

LOL.

I think there is only one person posting on here under several guises, and his name begins with V and ends in 3.

Bringing up some nonsense of drug use based on no evidence at all is the last resort of someone who can't put together a cogent argument. A bit like infants in a school yard calling each other names.

ventolin^3 wrote:

he's analysed it & says 11.6/36.5

He never said he'd timed that backstretch in 11.6. All he stated was "his last lap was around 50,5 and his last 300 around 36,5/36,6."

He further added that he couldn't be sure what the last 200 was as there is no clear line visible at that mark.

So 11.6 is not verified by video evidence. It is you who have stated it as such.

There may well be a running clock in the version Said88 has, but I doubt it is showing times to the nearest 0.01. They don't have on screen clocks showing (accurately) to the nearest hundredth today, so I very much doubt he could time it as 36.54 from a 1967 b&w video. The only way you can give it to 0.01 is if an official split comes up at 1200m. I don't believe that was the case on Said88's video of the race.

From the edited version of the race on Youtube, which I have looked at several times, there seem to be some very strange and random markings which don't really add up.

It's fairly clear when Ryun passes the finish line with a lap to go, and there are 2 curved markers on the back straight, either of which could be the start/300 line. Having timed it several times, I get between 13.1 and 13.3 for Ryun from the bell to the first line (just coming out of the curve). That doesn't fit in with the 36.6/50.5, which implies a 100m curve of 13.9.

If you time from the bell to the next clear line that goes across the track, you get a time of between 15.5 and 15.7, which again doesn't fit in with what Said has said.

There appears to be no other markings between these 2 that could be the 300m/start line. This is not unusual, as on many tracks they have a clear line 90m and 110m from the finish but not a clear one at 100m. So without a clearer piece of film, I would suggest that these 2 lines represent the change over zones 20m apart in a relay. If you take an average of the times, 13.2 and 15.6, there is a difference of 2.4, which is 12.0 pace for 100m.

However, that would mean that if he covered 90m from the bell in 13.2 and 110m in 15.6, then he would have taken 14.4 for 100m. If this is the case, then 36.6 + 14.4 would give us a last lap of 51.0 not 50.5.

It will be interesting if Said88 can let us know which line he took as the 300m from home line or did he work it out the same way I did.

If he took it from the straight line across the track when Ryun was between the Germans, I would suggest that this is 10m past the 300m point, meaning his last 300m was nearer to 37.8/37.9.

And if he timed it from the earlier line, then either the last 300 or 400 must be wrong.

Also, the video cuts back in right as Ryun is above the line at the beginning of the home straight. If you time from this point to when he crosses the line, I got 11.6 and 11.7. That is clearly the 90m line, which would mean his last 100m was between 12.8 and 13.0. And this would then put into question some reports at the time which said his last 200 was 24.8.

The numbers don't add up and I think some timers were taking splits from the wrong lines which were relay zone lines.