Plyometrics for running

Actually I have had some of the best coaches in the Nation. John Mcdonnell, Vin Lanana, Frank Gagliano. And to the contrary none of these over stressed plyos, drills, and weights. I think your athletes miss out on alot of things given the fact that you don't place an importance on the affore mention modes training other than just running. Once they get to college they probably have trouble staying injury free because they are weak and have poor running economy, but surely that's not the reason. Just another perspective. Good day!

None of them have improved in college? You really think college coaches are doing that poor of a job compared to you? I'm not necessarily doubting you, but with the kind of success you claim, I'm sure your kids are going to prestigious running programs with qualified coaches, at least some of them. Maybe this has nothing to do with the other "stuff" you speak of, but I'm assuming that with all of the success you've had and then nothing in college, you've been accused of overtraining. I'm not accusing you of anything, I know nothing about you or your methods (beyond no other "stuff"). But doesn't the fact that none of your athletes improve after they leave you ever bother you or cause you to re-evaluate what you're doing? I guess you can always argue that it's better to be champions at something once then never know what it's like no matter what age it's at. But if you're really that concerned for your athletes, wouldn't you be concerned with their possible development after they leave you? Or maybe all college coaches just really do not know what they are doing?

Just curious, not attacking you.

We'll have our runners do some basic drills a couple times a week (if that) with some basic lifting and core work, but no, we don't stress it all that much and never let it get in the way of the actual running.

"By the way.....weight training is also bogus when it comes to distance running......maybe some pushups, crunches and pullups.....that is about all you need."

That's a contradictory statement. Pushups, crunches, pullups IS weight training, or more specifically resistance training. What's the difference between a 140lb guy doing a pullup and doing a 140lb lat pulldown? Very little.

Run first, run a lot, then decide if you have the time to do any sort of plyometric or resistance training. I don't have much of a choice, I teach a Boot Camp class that incorporates lots of lunges, wall sits, high repetition shoulder/chest work, high knees, butt kicks, suicides, etc.

Alan

JHuffman- You have been trained by some of the best!

Plyo and Strength Training Folks- I have an honest question for you.....please answer if you know! Where in a race (ex. 5k) would a set of plyometric drills or a weight training session show up in the splits? How would you know it was the plyos or the weight training that caused that split to be what it was or wasn't?

I'm glad someone made the important distinction between plyometric drills and form drills. If you look at the theoretical basis used to promote plyometrics for explosive activities, it involves a reflex neural activation of muscle contraction following stretch loading. This is simply increasing the force of contraciton, which is important for explosion, but will have an associated increase in energy cost. Thus, if this is the mechanism of adaptation to plyometrics it is not likley to improve running economy. This is in contrast to drills designed to improve running form, which should increase economy. If plyometrics improved energy return from the elastic component of muscle, rather than increasing motor unit firing by neural reflex, then it could certainly help economy, but this is not the mechanimsm whereby plyometrics are supposed to induce adaptations.

Regardless of which running technique you practice during every run or race you are useing a certain amount of muscular effort to conteract external forces. Strength resistance training/flexibility/hills/plyo's/jumps as well as running all give one a greater ability to maintain one's form throughout each run or race. Does this make sense?

Your lungs don't run. Your heart doesn't run. Your legs do. Your legs are responsible for the propulsion that moves you forward. Provided you maintain the same mass, if you increase the power in your legs you should increase stride length. If you increase strength you should increase power as well since strength is one part of power. Plyos will increase power. Weights will increase strength. You can lift weights without gaining mass. High knees, butt kickers, those are plyos as well. Look on Marius Bakken's site for El Gourouj's training. He lifts. Geb lifts. Lots of runners lift.

Alan

Leg hops, jumps, etc.. didn't do anything for me, although I always did them before the run. My runs were slower and made me slower. Strength gains just didn't come into effect.

But jump-roping helped a lot and helped immediately, before or after. Stronger, more powerful stride. I am a front foot runner though, as that could make a difference. Skipping rope really works many muscles a front foot runner uses. In addition, you work the arms a bit and learn to breath correctly during fast-paced movements.

Runningart2004 wrote:

High knees, butt kickers, those are plyos as well. Look on Marius Bakken's site for El Gourouj's training. He lifts. Geb lifts. Lots of runners lift.

Alan

Alan, I don't doubt that those drills are beneficial, but they are not, by definition, plyometrics.

I think there's a lot of semantics issues going on here.

There's a difference between doing the plyos as part of an overall training program versus attributing all improvement to them. I did them for the early part of my season, 1 day a week as sort of an interval session, and in so much as I attribute any benefit uniquely to them, I would say that it was in injury prevention, by working muscles that a simple running motion wouldn't necessarily address, but which come into play during hard effort. I should also add that I was training and racing anywhere from the 4 x 400m to the 5K, which might be a little unique.

But as an inherently skinny/scrawny person, I found that my times were better when I had some lifting or plyo work going on. It doesn't mean that they were a panacea.

Finally, drills were used as a form of dynamic stretching/warmup, with the added benefit of providing some neuromuscular coordination. We never really thought of them as a workout. I will say that once one had the motion down fairly well from the drills, keeping form in the last lap of race seemed to be easier to do.

iflyboats - wow - what a head in the sand attitude you have. Doesn't the fact that you seem to be flying in the face of most opinions give you cause to think?

Personally, I think that plyometrics, done at a level suitable for the athlete (ie not overloading too much on athletes who aren't physically strong yet) is very important for athletes to improve their elastic strength. The impact risks are quite low if done on a suitable surface with a good, well coached technique. This is a pretty standard opinion within the sport.

The best explanation I can give is that by improving strength (particularly the muscles elastic capabilities) you'll be able to have less contact time on the ground with each step and a longer stride. If this is done to complement the other training done, then it is a win-win situation

bump this thread.

Bump.

Is it to late to to start doing little plyos for outdoor season after not really doing them for a month?

I don't think it's too late to do any of the appropriate plyo exercises at all although there is such thing as good timing and bad timing.

I recently got my hands on a DVD of some of the sprinting drills done by coach Susumu Takano, the coach of Shingo Suetsugu, the first and the only Asian to ever win a medal in the flat sprinting event in the world championships (2003 Paris 200). I'm trying to incorporate some of these drills to one of my runners. Along with straight-forward Lydiard hill bounding, we have started doing some of the drills--one in particularly, you SKIP over small cones (a foot high). We usually use about 10~12 of them and set them about 10 feet apart. It might take some getting used to but landing on the same foot as the take-off foot gives plyometircs effect; crossing your legs over the cone gives you a very quick leg movement as well as bringing your trail leg up and about very quickly; the whole exercise really works your coordination... A great drill.

Well what about p90x videos. Does anyone know any good results from the plyometrics or yoga videos? I have a friend who may let me borrow them.

Seb Coe's plyometric session while he studied at Loughborough university.

http://trackandfieldnews.com/technique/107-George_Gandy.pdf#search=%22gandy%20middle%20distance%20training%22

It would be interesting to see how many people have used some form of explosive training and realized a related performance gain.

My belief is that the drills do make a difference to the efficiency of electrical impulse through the nervous system, brain as well as the endocrine system. Also the explosive training would ad the value of increasing the load stretching contraction response in the muscle/ tendons.

One may say that distance running is "sub max", so why invest in this form of training? I would answer by saying that if your "max" is greater, the percentage of sub max is lower for a given pace. ( example) If you can run a 400 in 70 all out- I suspect running a 14:40 5k would be out of the question; however, if that 400 becomes 60 or faster, 70 seconds will glide under one's feet much easier.

Some may say, " why then not just sprint?" The way I see it, it may be more inefficient to get the maximum out of ones legs and hips if much of ones energy is used to keep up with the upper body.

Explosive leg plyos, very low rep heavy lifts, short hills (that do not introduce lactic acid). Short but very intense movements may better the 400, but also the 5 k also.

I do believe that plyos do impact your running form positively. Certain runners "look" like they have done a lot of plyos...it is ingrained in their running form. Most notably Valeriy Borzov and Dave Wottle. Mel Brodt at BGSU used drills a lot, but generally 1/3 and 2/3 through a regular workout. There was a lengthy thread on this several years ago initiated by Jess Squire.