Zat0pek wrote:
I've said it before and I'll say it again:
I competed in track and cross-country for two different universities, one NAIA and the other NCAA DI in a BCS conference. I have a close friend and law school classmate who went to work for the NCAA as an investigator. .....
Please see item #31 on the list. We covered this already.
I would say: Athlete has minimal success at the world-level. You know, 6th place finisher here, 5th place finisher there. Routinely gets outkicked by athletes with equally minimal levels of success. Is, you know, good, but never considered great and even, on occasion fails to qualify for a final here and there. And then...
at the age of 30 runs 3:28 1500 (as a 5/10 runner) and wins double gold at the Olympics and World-Championships and routinely outkicks the greatest kickers of all-time.
Most Interesting Coach ITW wrote:
My serious opinion of two of the biggest tells are.
#1. Poor form while running world-class time: It's possible that someone may be doing something that is simply not understood, but it's very uncommon. Take P. Jeptoo for instance. Her right leg return is very awkward, but she is EXTREMELY lean compared to most of her competitors, which gives her a big advantage over an hour plus of running. Also, sprinters often move their legs in this identical way their first step out of the blocks so there may be something quite natural to this movement. Mary Cain ran a bit like this when she laid down a 2:03 800 relay leg as a freshman too.
#2. The look immediately after winning the race: Many cheaters have horrible poker faces. They win and the look in their eye says "Uh oh. Sh.t's about to get real." Watch Alptekin in the seconds after she wins, it's like she instantly regrets having done it. The link below cuts towards the end where she is running like a donkey, arms flailing all over the place, you know, like one of these girls in the fitness adds where you can tell she is not actually a runner?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWzqfiWRE9Q#t=413#3. Having a BMI that is much higher than the other athletes in the race. Again, witness Alptekin, it just doesn't look right.
None of these 3 things are proof of doping, but they raise red flags in my eye. If someone is guilty of all 3 that makes the performance very difficult to believe.
Interesting. How many WR holders fit that model? In men's track,Usain Bolt, MJ, Rudisha, el G, Komen, Bekele and Kipsang (discounting herders, who cares what hurdles do, right?) :).
Which of those guys have/had poor form?
Blahhhhh wrote:
I would say: Athlete has minimal success at the world-level. You know, 6th place finisher here, 5th place finisher there. Routinely gets outkicked by athletes with equally minimal levels of success. Is, you know, good, but never considered great and even, on occasion fails to qualify for a final here and there. And then...
at the age of 30 runs 3:28 1500 (as a 5/10 runner) and wins double gold at the Olympics and World-Championships and routinely outkicks the greatest kickers of all-time.
Not to nitpick ...... But which of the "greatest kickers of all time" has Mo Farah "routinely outkicked"?
Wtfunny wrote:
Blahhhhh wrote:I would say: Athlete has minimal success at the world-level. You know, 6th place finisher here, 5th place finisher there. Routinely gets outkicked by athletes with equally minimal levels of success. Is, you know, good, but never considered great and even, on occasion fails to qualify for a final here and there. And then...
at the age of 30 runs 3:28 1500 (as a 5/10 runner) and wins double gold at the Olympics and World-Championships and routinely outkicks the greatest kickers of all-time.
Not to nitpick ...... But which of the "greatest kickers of all time" has Mo Farah "routinely outkicked"?
Ok - "routinely" is misleading. We all know he's outkicked some of the greatest kickers of all time. I'll name 2 off the top of my head: Ken B and Lagat.
Letsrun rules
Run fast time but don't fail dope test like dibar. Doper
Run fast fail dope test like Merrit. Innocent
In 1987, a good friend of mine, himself a former national-class runner who raced "B" meets in Europe, was coaching at a JUCO. Also at this JUCO was a coach from the former Soviet Union. My friend called me one night in 1987 to tell me that the Soviet coach told him that there had been a rampant rumor in Europe before he left that, due to public perceptions about drug use in sport, an edict had been sent out by a governing body that the "highest-placing non-American in the 100 meters" was to fail his drug test at the upcoming Olympics in Seoul to send a signal.
Some "Soviet coach" told "a good friend" of yours that there were "rampant rumors" in Europe. Yeah right. Did he tell your friend that the Twin Towers would fall in 2001 too?
But sure, it was written on the internet, so it must be true.
Track Fan 1979 wrote:
I have NOP is dirty. One other athlete who had a "calf injury" and didn't compete for almost 18 months prior to the 2011 WC men's 10,000 was told that unless he laid low for 18 months his positive test would be made public. Yes I'm referring to KB.
obvious epo and cera imo bekele
hooked up with dodgy hermens and his doping network
el guerroujs growth hormone played havoc with his teeth
obvious from his fingers too
. ... another one of many tells is when the athlete starts talking up all the big training they're doing to explain improved performance
Case in point mo farah
J.R. wrote:
Maybe someone mentioned this very important fallacy, you can't run fast without drugs.
Extensions of this are, you can't be healthy without drugs, you can't take a crap without drugs, you can't pass a test without drugs, you can't get a girl without drugs etc etc.
Let me guess, you're in marketing for Pfizer.
Blahhhhh wrote:
Ok - "routinely" is misleading. We all know he's outkicked some of the greatest kickers of all time. I'll name 2 off the top of my head: Ken B and Lagat.
Mo outkicked these guys when they were a far, far cry from being either of the greatest kickers of all time. Look at who else outkicked them in some of the same races: hardly anyone known for their infamous kick.
In 2012, Rupp outkicked Lagat in the US Trials 5000m. Galen has improved, a lot, and he's a world class athlete. But he's hardly anyone would suggest as being one of the greatest kickers of all time. Galen also outkicked KB in London ... As did KB's brother.
KB also outkicked Mo last year.
Last year Mo had to work it to beat Hagos and Isiah in a modest 5000m .... Neither of whom are known for a blazing kick. And Hagos ran a faster last lap than Mo.
IMO, Mo's biggest strength has been becoming a sound tactician .... He beat Gebremeskel in London purely on tactics, and he beat Hagos the same way last year. Doping doesn't, iirc, make athletes smarter.
Wtfunny wrote:
Doping doesn't, iirc, make athletes smarter.
It makes you stronger and faster like mo
No use being smart if you don't have the strength and speed
J.R. wrote:
Maybe someone mentioned this very important fallacy, you can't run fast without drugs.
Extensions of this are, you can't be healthy without drugs, you can't take a crap without drugs, you can't pass a test without drugs, you can't get a girl without drugs etc etc.
I don't see how those follow. You are going to have to connect the dots for me on this one.
It's also important to realize that no one is saying you can't run fast without drugs, but for many people they do believe you cannot be the best without drugs at this point, as drugs have already taken us beyond the limits of possible clean performances.
I'm not seeing the move though that takes us from running to a different area of life. What "blocks" the counter-argument to yours that say drugs help in running, but do not assist in other activities of life. In fact, most drugs you can take for performance are arguably bad for health.
just sayin wrote:
Wtfunny wrote:Doping doesn't, iirc, make athletes smarter.
It makes you stronger and faster like mo
No use being smart if you don't have the strength and speed
As was pointed out in the post you quoted, certainly 2 of the biggest races MO won he won by being smarter, not stronger or faster, than the other athletes. When he raced Bekele in the half, he was both outsmarted and outran. He did outrun an aged Haille, though.
LM wrote:
J.R. wrote:Maybe someone mentioned this very important fallacy, you can't run fast without drugs.
Extensions of this are, you can't be healthy without drugs, you can't take a crap without drugs, you can't pass a test without drugs, you can't get a girl without drugs etc etc.
I don't see how those follow. You are going to have to connect the dots for me on this one.
It's also important to realize that no one is saying you can't run fast without drugs, but for many people they do believe you cannot be the best without drugs at this point, as drugs have already taken us beyond the limits of possible clean performances.
I'm not seeing the move though that takes us from running to a different area of life. What "blocks" the counter-argument to yours that say drugs help in running, but do not assist in other activities of life. In fact, most drugs you can take for performance are arguably bad for health.
That's why they are fallacies.
wtfunny wrote:
just sayin wrote:It makes you stronger and faster like mo
No use being smart if you don't have the strength and speed
As was pointed out in the post you quoted, certainly 2 of the biggest races MO won he won by being smarter, not stronger or faster, than the other athletes. When he raced Bekele in the half, he was both outsmarted and outran. He did outrun an aged Haille, though.
OK.. So mo has got a lot smarter
That's the key to his recent success
Interesting theory..
just sayin wrote:
wtfunny wrote:As was pointed out in the post you quoted, certainly 2 of the biggest races MO won he won by being smarter, not stronger or faster, than the other athletes. When he raced Bekele in the half, he was both outsmarted and outran. He did outrun an aged Haille, though.
OK.. So mo has got a lot smarter
That's the key to his recent success
Interesting theory..
He's clearly stronger and faster than he used to be .. but comparing him to the current set of 5000m runners, he typically runs a smarter race than they do. We know he's not stronger and faster over 1500m than Kiprop is. Kiprop smoked him last year. Over 5000m? When he beats the PBs of the likes f Hagos, Gebremeskel and Koech, then sure, we can say he's simply stronger and faster than those guys are. He's definitely a better championship racer than they are.But when he races them and they run a faster last lap than he does, and he beats them by only a couple of yards, it suggests his tactics were superior to theirs. And this is, consistently, what happens.
Lagat and virtually every Kenyan born before tetanus shots became widely available is missing those bottom teeth. It's so they can be fed through a straw if they contract tetanus and get lockjaw.
Keimo, Temu, Boit, Rono, Kimobwa, Lagat all were missing those teeth.
Likely the younger generation had tetanus shots and didn't need to have the teeth removed.
It can be argued both ways
He's a smart racer
But imo peds+ enhanced training have given him the confidence to implement his new game plan
his training has clearly been a big change. And there's no question he's a better athlete than he used to be. Undeniably. Suspicions based on such a marked improvement aren't, imo, awfully unreasonable. But the notion that he routinely out kicks, or even ever outkicks, the world's greatest kickers is simply silly.
If one's going to level suspicions and accusations, as people do routinely on LRC, they should at least do so honestly and from an informed viewpoint. And that RARELY happens here - hence this thread
Wtfunny wrote:
Interesting. How many WR holders fit that model? In men's track,Usain Bolt, MJ, Rudisha, el G, Komen, Bekele and Kipsang (discounting herders, who cares what hurdles do, right?) :).
Which of those guys have/had poor form?
Are you asking which of them have or did have bad form?
If so, the answer would be zero. They all had excellent form for their event length. MJ is the most distinct looking, but had more extension at the elbow when he ran the 200. When he ran the 400 he and Wariner used almost identical mechanics. Komen just floated, I don't think he actually took any steps.
Rudisha is clearly an Avatar of some Hindu running deity; it's not fair that he competes against humans, but at least it explains why he doesn't breathe.
Can you imagine?, Bernard Lagat telling people you did what was a very hard set of intervals for him and you weren't even breathing.