These post-race sessions (which as far as I can tell are only done early in the indoor season, maybe outdoor?)is a pretty unique Salazar thing, and he's been doing it at least ten years (He did it with Adam Goucher also). As such he seems to have figured out how to integrate it into the overall system with minimal injury risk.
big joker wrote:
There are only a couple of guys in the world who can do that workout on its own, let alone after an all out 5000m in 13.01. I'm shocked that Cam MF Levins can do that on its own, ESPECIALLY in January. It takes months to get your leg speed around to 53s 400m pace, and to do that while building up the strength required to run 13 flat..........
Salazar focuses on hard speed work all year round.
DumpsterDiver wrote:
Stuck around to watch the post race workout, and timed Rupp's and Cam's workout, these are what I got for splits:
800- 2:01
400 jog rest (3:30)
400-54.7
400 jog rest (3:45)
800-1:59
400 jog rest (3:45)
400- 54.6
7 or 8 minute break when changing into spikes (what they raced in) from flats (streak LT2s with tumbo plate)
400- 54.5
400 jog rest (3:45)
400- 53.8
400 jog rest (3:45)
400-Missed the first lap but second was 26.8 so probably 53.high or mid (Only Cam did this last 400)
Too much rest. -- Typical Letsrun Poster
hscoach1234555 wrote:
Not sure of the break, there were some 4 x 4's. Salazar said that going hard after the race would allow more recovery before the next race. If they waited and went hard a couple of days later, it would affect the race more. I thought he said racing again in 9 days.
Very smart move by Al.
That 9 day window is significant. For a truly hard effort, 8-10 days is the optimal recovery window for complete supercompensation from a 5K+ race effort (more like 12-14 for masters and those of us with a real job). HS and college coaches try to cram in too much in a week, resulting in injuries and poor performances, as they assume that 2-3 days is enough recovery from race-like efforts at 1500m+.
This, plus the easy warmup/down and full recoveries are key features of what he is doing here. For knowledgable coaches, it isn't the ingredients that make the magic, it's how and when you use them.
Just curious, exactly how slow do they run their warm ups and cool downs?
"Is this true? Pretty darn good if it is."
Seriously? This is your response? Considering Rupp is one of the best in the world, I would expect the times of his workouts to be "pretty darn good".
Again, this may not be really accurate, but I was watching on Fotrack pro and decided to time the warm down laps. I could not get an accurate time per lap because of the camera movement, but I did get an accurate split for 3 full laps and it was 3:17, so I'm thinking no faster than 8:00-8:20.
Geez, everyone. Put race + workouts this into numbers us mere mortals are more comfortable with and it's not as crazy as it looks.
College kid runs a 5k PR of 16:00.
Cools-down a couple of miles and shakes 200 hands.
40 minutes later, he and a comparable teammate do:
600 @ 3k pace (1:51)
300 @ just under Mile Pace (54)
600 @ 3k pace (1:51)
300 @ Just under Mile Pace (54)
Rest 7 minutes
300 @ 54
300 @ 54
Is too tired to do another 300m so stops.
I did quite a bit of post-race workouts myself. Not as hard as what is described for Rupp, but hard/fast enough, especially when I was in sub 13:10 5 k shape.
In my opinion it all comes down to muscular stress. In medical school I did my masters thesis on muscle tone and got to study it further. The limiting factor in terms of recovery, especially in running, seems to be muscular. If you look at for example cross country skiing / cycling, they can be much longer, much more intense sessions because the muscular component is stressed less (no impact from gravity) So the cardiovascular/metabolic stress does not seems to be a real a limiting factor. However, the way muscles work - and especially how muscle tone varies with type work/impact and time is a HUGE factor in all of this.
What I found out was the clustering hard work within hours made it possible to train much harder, without eating too much into recovery. So I would often double up very hard training sessions with only a few hours in between - or add workouts right after races, similar to what Rupp does. As long as three DAYS a weeks were just easy running, I could do very hard doubles the hard days. And it worked better with fewer hours in between, than early morning + late afternoon.
I also suspect that the use of altitude 365 days a year (tents/houses + natural) that the Salazar group does, makes it possible for them to sustain their aerobic abilities better through all of this hard anaerobic type work - in a way other runners would probably get into more problems.
all the best,
Marius Bakken
--------------------
THANKS FOR THE POST MARIUS! GREAT STUFF.
I remember Holman, Trautmann and the other Georgetown/Enclave crew doing this 20 years ago. Hard 1500 or 3000, then 8 * 200 with an easssssssy jog.
Easy to do these workouts when you are doped to the gills with EPO and thyroid drugs.
The rocket... wrote:
My question is how does he not get sick?
Run a 13:01 5k
Shake hands with 200 people
Do a very hard workout to exhaustion
Seems like a recipe for illness.
He probably uses handy wipes.
Monk wrote:
The rocket... wrote:My question is how does he not get sick?
Run a 13:01 5k
Shake hands with 200 people
Do a very hard workout to exhaustion
Seems like a recipe for illness.
He probably uses handy wipes.
Or doesn't suck his thumb during workouts.
Actually, not touching your eyes or nose can be a tough one. Probably washes off somehow.
The Bernak wrote:
Monk wrote:He probably uses handy wipes.
Or doesn't suck his thumb during workouts.
Stuck around to watch the post race workout, and timed Rupp\\\\\\\'s and Cam\\\\\\\'s workout, these are what I got for splits:
800- 2:01
400 jog rest (3:30)
400-54.7
400 jog rest (3:45)
800-1:59
400 jog rest (3:45)
400- 54.6
7 or 8 minute break when changing into spikes (what they raced in) from flats (streak LT2s with tumbo plate)
400- 54.5
400 jog rest (3:45)
400- 53.8
400 jog rest (3:45)
400-Missed the first lap but second was 26.8 so probably 53.high or mid (Only Cam did this last 400)\\\\\\\"
______________________________________________
Excellent Intel, DD!
jk coaching wrote:
Is this really that much different than do multiple races at a track meet?
How many times do hs and college kids run PRs and then double and triple in other events.
1) it's a bit different than *many* (not all) doubles and triples, because:
a) sometimes when runners are doubling/tripling, the race efforts are not 100% as was Rupp's was last night. Sometimes they are just getting points and kicking in tactical races.
b) sometimes the double or triple involves a distance race and then a single hard shorter effort (400 or 800 as part of relay). Not as taxing as 100% race effort and then really hard workout of multiple fast 400's.
2) when hs and college kids ARE doing extremely hard doubles/triples at meets (all out 100% efforts in multiple distance races), often there is criticism of it being too stressful. Right? Furthermore, some athletes in fact known for these doubles/triples seemed to have their careers die out quickly.
Of course this is not happening with Rupp, but...
Plural wrote:
These post-race sessions (which as far as I can tell are only done early in the indoor season, maybe outdoor?)is a pretty unique Salazar thing, and he's been doing it at least ten years (He did it with Adam Goucher also). As such he seems to have figured out how to integrate it into the overall system with minimal injury risk.
That's true, Rupp has been very healthy. But who is that other guy you mention used to do this type training (hard workouts after races) ??
800 Coach wrote:
This is not new.
You want all the breakdown at once. 1 x 5000m should always be followed by some shorter faster stuff, so your body can get a full breakdown before the recovery starts. If you do not do this, you will have trouble ever getting that fast stuff in during the racing season.
This is the same reason why you should lift leg weights on the same day as you run hard. When it is time to drive your body down, do it all at once. When it is time to recover (like for the next 2 or 3 days) recover well - don't do anything that will hinder your recovery.
well, then by all means I hope Rupp followed his 100% race effort and hard track workout with some heavy weights for squats, some plyos, and maybe another track workout around mid night. I mean, if your hard days are supposed to be hard as they can possibly be, well, time to get serious!
There is no such exercise-physiological concept as full breakdown. This type of workout borrows from Peter to pay Paul. Overtraining and then chronic fatigue syndrome flow from such double efforts. Watch Rupp have another lackluster outdoor season. And follow carefully Salazar's own legendary flameout. Even cooling down has been discredited. Run hard and go home and chill.