Top Ten Greatest High School Runners (Girls)

mass pole. wrote:How can you not separate indoor and outdoor? Indoor tracks are not as fast as outdoor tracks, especially not Madison Square Garden's old 11 lap to the mile track where Jennings ran 4:39.0. She did not run spring track that year because she jumped in the Boston marathon and ran 2:46 (i think it was actually 2:43), she certainly would have run very fast.

Like I said earlier, Chock did not have a great HS career, she had a great HS year, due to the eating disorder, look at the toll it took, which is pretty sad.

1. Because you're running the same distance either way

2. Because you're running on flat (or banked) ground either way

3. A small portion of the nation actually runs indoor, making "national" records quite a bit less "national"

4. You can't prove that indoor tracks are slower than outdoor tracks aside from pointing out the fact that athletes tend to run faster a couple months later during the outdoor season (which should be obvious, as they've had extra weeks of training to get better) - it's not like there haven't been athletes that have faster indoor PR's than outdoor.

Chock is one of five female athletes that met two specific criteria: Held a HSR at one time (relevant because they were the "best ever" some given event at some point in their HS career), and is still in the top-5 (relevant because their accomplishment has stood the test of time - so far).

Jennings isn't in the top 6 in any event today, isn't in the top 7 in any event if you don't separate full mile from 1600m/mile combined lists, and isn't in the top 8 in any event if you add 0.24s for a hand timed mark, and isn't near the top 10 even in the mile if you include 1500m conversions as well. And she isn't near the top 10 in any other event (including the 1500m), and not much faster in her best event than the worst event of the one athlete you are complaining about.

I get it, you feel like Jennings should be included because she's from Massachusetts and ran well indoors. But her times don't match up, and her accomplishments don't hold up UNLESS you separate indoor and outdoor, which is pointless because that discounts the majority of the nation as well as athletes that instead focus on the bigger goal (outdoor track, their finale). Putting that much stock in indoor records is like saying someone is great because they led the first half of the race, and then ignoring the fact that they got swallowed up by the field by the end of the race and didn't finish on or near the podium. Except it's even worse than that, because indoor really only represents Northeastern and some Midwestern states.

watchout wrote:

Chock is one of five female athletes that met two specific criteria

Typo - meant to say "one of nine"

watchout wrote:

Chock is one of five female athletes that met two specific criteria: Held a HSR at one time (relevant because they were the "best ever" some given event at some point in their HS career), and is still in the top-5 (relevant because their accomplishment has stood the test of time - so far).

How did you pick that criteria? Why top five and not top ten?

And only five? If we are counting non-standard distances (like the 5000), I can think of: Mary Cain, Mary Decker, Cathy Schiro, Mary Shea, Kim Gallagher, Emily Sisson, Lynn Bjorklund, Kim Mortenson, and Polly Plumer. Jorda Hasay if you count her 1500 record, which probably converted out to a little slower than Polly Plumer's mile. Melody Fairchild only slipped to number six after Mary Cain's HSR.

Ok, Jennings also ran well outdoors, she did win JR. Nats in the 1500 (4:18) I think, which is what she always did best, win. She didn't run for times, she ran to win. Her SR. year was not going to show any quality track times because of that darn Boston Marathon thing.

Also, Chock was the national record holder at an event that very few HS girls actually run. What percentage of top HS girls actually race the 5k? You should include the girls who at one time held the national record in the steeple chase and who still remain in the top five, another event that few compete in. Easy to meet a criteria if you pick the right event.

Critical Thinking wrote:

watchout wrote:

Chock is one of five female athletes that met two specific criteria: Held a HSR at one time (relevant because they were the "best ever" some given event at some point in their HS career), and is still in the top-5 (relevant because their accomplishment has stood the test of time - so far).

How did you pick that criteria? Why top five and not top ten?

And only five? If we are counting non-standard distances (like the 5000), I can think of: Mary Cain, Mary Decker, Cathy Schiro, Mary Shea, Kim Gallagher, Emily Sisson, Lynn Bjorklund, Kim Mortenson, and Polly Plumer. Jorda Hasay if you count her 1500 record, which probably converted out to a little slower than Polly Plumer's mile. Melody Fairchild only slipped to number six after Mary Cain's HSR.

As I quickly corrected myself (though letsrun not having an 'edit' option, it was in a separate post), I meant to say seven. And I didn't include steeple or 10k, which would have added a few more, because those haven't been often competed in ANY era (and, I admit, 5k wasn't often competed for girls until recently, and still isn't nearly as common as 800-2mile events). One small mistake I did notice in my post though: Chock is #4, not #3, All-Time (forgot about Cain's 5k)

The nine that meet such standards are the top 9 in my original post (where I listed my top 10). Fairchild was the only one I included that didn't meet both criteria, because she seemed like the most accomplished of the rest of the bunch.

Going through the list...

1. Mary Cain - was and still is (obviously) #1 in all events 800m-5k (as long as you group together 1500m/1600m/Mile and 3k/3200m/2Mile into a single comparable list).

2. Jordan Hasay - Was HSR holder for 1500m/1600m/Mile (4:14.50 for 1500m) until Cain came along; still #2 in both the combined list and 1500m list.

3. Kim Gallagher - Was HSR holder for 800m (2:00.07) until Cain; still #2.

4. Kim Mortensen - was #1 in the 3000m/3200m/2Mile (9:48.59 for 3200m); still #2 in the combined list and #1 for 3200m only.

5. Lynn Bjorklund - was #1 in the 3000m/3200m/2Mile (9:08.6h for 3k); still #3 in the combined list and #2 for 3k.

6. Emily Sisson - was #1 in the 5k (15:48.91); still #2 and the only runner aside from Cain to go under 15:50.

7. Polly Plumer - was #1 in the 1500m/1600m/Mile (4:35.24y); still #3 in the combined list and #2 for 1600m/Mile and Mile only.

8. Mary Decker - was #1 in the 800m (2:01.8h); still #5.

9. Caitlin Chock - was #1 in the 5k (15:52.88); still #4.

Why Top 5? Because I wanted to keep it strictly to be a comparison of the best ever, which requires a pretty narrowed field, and as we are comparing athletes from a minimum of 3 events (800m, 1500m/1600m/Mile, 3000m/3200m/2Mile), that would give at least 15 athletes to compare (good for picking out a top 8-10 group); expanding to 5k/10k/XC (though the latter obviously very hard to do, given different courses and course layouts on top of different eras, and I didn't really look at 10k for girls because only a VERY small handful of notables had ever attempted in - Shea's record is the only performance on par with the top 5 in all the other events IMO) would fill in any gaps.

mass pole. wrote:

Ok, Jennings also ran well outdoors, she did win JR. Nats in the 1500 (4:18) I think, which is what she always did best, win. She didn't run for times, she ran to win. Her SR. year was not going to show any quality track times because of that darn Boston Marathon thing.

Also, Chock was the national record holder at an event that very few HS girls actually run. What percentage of top HS girls actually race the 5k? You should include the girls who at one time held the national record in the steeple chase and who still remain in the top five, another event that few compete in. Easy to meet a criteria if you pick the right event.

I didn't say she didn't run well outdoors. I said that records and times indoors and outdoors shouldn't be separated when comparing across history. Hence the "first part of the race" comparison (the "finish" being the combined indoor/outdoor bests).

I agree, the 5k is not nearly as often run as the standard 800m/Mile/2Mile and their similar counterparts (1500m/1600m/3k/3200m). Still, there were several that had run it before Chock (Cathy Schiro, Mary Shea, and Erin Keough are three notables from previous eras that are still in the Top-10 lists), and plenty have tested it since (Cain, Sisson, Hatton, O'Reilly, Finn, Erba, Knight, Baxter, Brasovan, Frazier, etc.). In short - it has become an adequately competed in event over the last decade, although that certainly hasn't always been the case and still isn't nearly as common as the standard 800m/Mile/2Mile and their variants.

I didn't include the Steeple because that's even less common of an event. Yes, New York runs the Steeple (2k for girls, 3k for boys). But beyond that, it's not ran any more common than the 5k, and the 5k tends to get a little better representation nationwide (probably because it doesn't involve hurdling a barrier, which 99.99% of kids don't have the opportunity to practice on unless they substituted hurdles).

How about Caroline Walker, world record holder in the marathon while still in high school? How many of these other girls set WORLD RECORDS while in high school? C'mon!

Okay, watchout, why not Mary Shea? Still holds the 10000 record, which was also an American record at the time and the fastest time in the world that year. Her splits for that are close to the top 10 for the 5000. Still top ten in the 3000/3200/two-mile, close enough to everyone else on the list that Cain is the only one she wouldn't have had a shot at in head to head competition. 3 HSRs (though the deuce has an asterisk because of Lynn Bjorklund's 3000), and she won XC nationals as a senior.

Mr. Cain,

How can someone be the greatest high school runner of all time who didn't run a track high school race? This was not classified as an 18 & under list.

How can one be greatest of all time who never one a national title.

If she's such a little girl why you all up on her?

Sartor Resartus wrote:

Okay, watchout, why not Mary Shea? Still holds the 10000 record, which was also an American record at the time and the fastest time in the world that year. Her splits for that are close to the top 10 for the 5000. Still top ten in the 3000/3200/two-mile, close enough to everyone else on the list that Cain is the only one she wouldn't have had a shot at in head to head competition. 3 HSRs (though the deuce has an asterisk because of Lynn Bjorklund's 3000), and she won XC nationals as a senior.

Mary Shea would be a very solid choice - I don't think she's quite among the top 8, but #9/10 would be very reasonable for her IMO.

Your list is based entirely on track performances. How do you account for XC accomplishments in your criteria? For example, Baxter is 27 seconds faster than Hasay at Mt Sac in all of Hasay's attempts and 22 seconds faster at Woodward.

I'm not necessarily saying that Baxter should be ahead of Hasay but that basing everything on track times does not take into account the complete picture.

Yes, it's almost entirely based on track performances, because comparing across multiple eras is easier in track than cross country (cross country includes many different courses, different layouts on those courses, different conditions on those courses, in addition to differences in competition in the different eras).

Baxter is going to go down, and rightfully so, as the best California XC girl, and possibly the best XC girl in US History (though if Efraimson wins NXN next year, she might usurp that title). Baxter hasn't yet matched Hasay on the track, and unless she does run, say, sub-9:50 or 15:55 this year, I don't think she really has a place among the top 10 All-Time DISTANCE (meaning 800m-XC) runners in HS history.

How about Marie Lawrence? Former steeple national record-holder and 3-time Footlocker runner-up and a 5th her senior year.

fadfdasf wrote:

How about Marie Lawrence? Former steeple national record-holder and 3-time Footlocker runner-up and a 5th her senior year.

Cutest no doubt.

Kim Gallagher was the HSR in the 800, 1500, mile, 4x8, DMR and was 3rd on the 5k list at one time. Btw, the 5K was done as little more than a work out. Kim was also the Penn Relays mile champ, multiple COAs which included anchoring a COA 4x4. Multiple PA State individual and team XC and track championships. Gallagher was absolutely dominant and anything that she did not accomplish was because their just wasn't an opportunity. Girls did not run the 2 mile in Kim's day and she never ran Kenny or Footlocker, but she was a scary good XC runner with out taking it serious. When she set the 4:36 HSR in the mile, it was at a meet where she tripled. Plumber broke the HSR record two weeks later, but Kim said if she had run the mile around the time when set the 800 WJR/HSR she could have run under 4:30. Kim only had one all out record attempt where she wasn't focused on her team and that was at the World Juniors when set the 800 WJR.

In the early days of Dyestat, I saw a list where the top t&f writers and data guys ranked Kim Gallagher as the greatest American H.S. t&f athlete across all events, male or female. I can't take anything away from Decker or Cain, but Decker didn't have great H.S. career, she had 2 incredible performances and in terms of Decker or Cain, it is difficult to compare an athlete like Kim who ran for a team, she ran all of her H.S. meets, frequently tripling and often the relay were the primary focus. It is also difficult to compare performances from difference eras, because Kim's 2 flat in the 800, a record which lasted for 30 years, was equal to Jim Ryun's 3:55 at that time. How ever you want to look at it, there is no list that should not have not Gallagher some where in the top-3.

As nice as Chock is personally, there is zero chance she is a top 10 all time. For example, Allyson Felix was way better and she has not even been mentioned. Criteria should include national and world ranking, national teams and honors won.

OK watchout

Where is Ari lambie? Set a national record in HS at 1000m, still #2 all-time, won a national title in HS at 1 mile and a jr national title at 1500m, ran a 4:37.23 mile in an all HS race, was #3 all-time at the time, still ranked high. She also ran a 10:11.9 two mile in a dual meet (2nd place was 13:00).

hp wrote:

OK watchout

Where is Ari lambie? Set a national record in HS at 1000m, still #2 all-time, won a national title in HS at 1 mile and a jr national title at 1500m, ran a 4:37.23 mile in an all HS race, was #3 all-time at the time, still ranked high. She also ran a 10:11.9 two mile in a dual meet (2nd place was 13:00).

Well,

She is currently the #9 Miler on the combined list (1500m/1600/Mile). Luckily for her, both Efraimson and Cranny are already ahead of her, so she doesn't have to worry about the likelyhood of those two passing her this year, and I don't think any others will either. Still, #9 isn't exactly all that high when you're talking about such a select group (Top-10 athletes of all time from 5 disciplines - 800m, mile, 2 mile, 5k, XC ... or six with 10k if you want to stretch it that far for Mary Shea's sake)

She wasn't the HSR holder in an outdoor event. Granted, I didn't really look at her indoor 1k time. Her 1k time is really the only thing that would make her a candidate for this list though, and the fact that she was a couple seconds slower than another runner who didn't make the cut (Bowman) wouldn't help her case, either, unless you want to include Bowman at #9 and Lambie at #10 (and they should certainly be in that order IMO)... but then you're moving them past Chock, Fairchild, Schiro, Shea, Cuffe, Hatton, etc. ... some of whom would be reasonable enough, but were they both better than ALL of them?

Efraimson and Cranny will probably make their mark in track this year, and maybe Baxter as well. And DeBalsi is probably only a year away, too.

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Debbie Heald