Suzy Favor Hamilton.
Suzy Favor Hamilton.
Suzy Favor Hamilton - olympics
JennyB - NCAA XC
* wrote:
Webb had the #1 time in the world at 1500m in 2007 as well as the fastest mile in years.
Both very overrated stats. Webb STILL has the fastest mile in the last decade, but he's not even close to the best miler.
Good time trials are rare. If you weren't following running in 2007, a much better stat to look at is the Track and Field News rankings, which are based on the season as a whole, not just the championship or the performance list. I believe the guy ranked #1 in 2007 did not even make the world final. I believe Webb was also ranked #7, and he finished 8th, in a race where the top 8 were separated by less than 1 second, after leading much of the final lap. If you think he choked in the final, you simply don't know much about the year 2007.
Hardloper wrote:
By Webb's 1500 PR he was probably #8 or worse at that time. If we convert Webb's mile to a 3:29-high, he is still at least #5 or 6 in that 2007 field. If you consider that perfectly paced record attempts like Webb's are a rare luxury in the running world, even more guys would have faster PRs than Webb. If you think Webb should have medaled in 2007, you didn't follow running in 2007.
If we say that Webb's 3:46.91 Mile is equivalent to 3:30.10, then he should have been favourite to win in 2007.
NO ONE that year ran as fast as that. Indeed, Webb himself was the fastest man over 1500 proper that year, with 3:30.54. The next fastest was Kaouch in 3:30.77.
So Webb certainly should have medalled in the 2007 Worlds!
Hardloper wrote:
a much better stat to look at is the Track and Field News rankings, which are based on the season as a whole, not just the championship or the performance list. I believe the guy ranked #1 in 2007 did not even make the world final. I believe Webb was also ranked #7, and he finished 8th, in a race where the top 8 were separated by less than 1 second, after leading much of the final lap. If you think he choked in the final, you simply don't know much about the year 2007.
No
This just shows that Track and Field News rankings are bullsh!t
Example -
Who was ranked #1 in the world over 1500m in 1984?
Was it the guy who became the only person in history to win two olympic titles at the distance who also set an olympic record in the process? The guy who also won Zurich shortly after and again trounced a top field?
Nope!
It was Said Aouita, a guy who didn't even compete in the olympic 1500.
The fact that Webb was ranked #7 just shows how stupid those rankings are. How many 1500m/mile races did Webb lose in 2007? One. He beat a top field in Paris in a world leading time and became the 8th fastest miler in history. Webb was the best miler in the world that year.
Webb was fast. It mattered most to perform in championships. He couldn't. Therefore Webb was a fast runner who couldn't (and still can't and never will) perform when it matters most. He can run a time trial to be sure, but he can't perform in a race.
Repeating it over and over doesn't make it true.
Everyone knows Webb was a headcase in World Championship races. Here is evidence of how bad it was:
Impending Choke wrote:
Webb was fast. It mattered most to perform in championships.
Yes he could. He performed to his ability, and, in the case of 2007 US Championships, exceeded his expected ability.
Asafa Powell.
Red Arrow wrote:
If we say that Webb's 3:46.91 Mile is equivalent to 3:30.10, then he should have been favourite to win in 2007.
NO ONE that year ran as fast as that.
Red Arrow, the fact that you're falling back on season bests just proves that you weren't actually paying attention in 2007.
The fastest race that year was Paris, where most of the top runners weren't in it. Lagat was in it but ran horribly (3:35). Second place in that race was Baala, in a time that got him 3rd-fastest for the year. Where was Baala in the World Championships? He didn't even make the final!
Do you really think the drug-induced Ramzi (silver that year) wouldn't have run 3:30 if he were in that race?
Similarly, 3:46 only happened because he set up a time trial in a forest in Belgium specifically to run fast. This luxury is why Webb has deceptively good PRs, and why to the untrained eye it looks like he performs worse than he should in championships.
DontFeedTheTroll wrote:
Asafa Powell.
When did Powell not perform when it mattered most?
In 2004 he would have had to run a .05 PR in the final to even get a medal. He first rose to the top in 2005, then got injured. 2006 was a nothing year, except his Commonwealth gold. Then by 2007 Bolt and Gay had come around who would both end up faster than he ever was, but he still secured bronze. Consistently anchored the relay which is more than the US runners could say in that time frame.
Unless you count the times he got injured against him, he always ran to his ability in the finals, he just had unfortunate timing in his career.
lip kitten wrote:
Everyone knows Webb was a headcase in World Championship races. Here is evidence of how bad it was:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abxUL7zz1nI
An even worse example. He didn't even belong in the final in 2005, he ran an exceptional semi just to get in beating guys with better PRs. Who cares what he did in the final, he wasn't coming home with a medal anyways.
Track and Field News ranking is not really a stat.
But they had Webb ranked #6 in 2007.
For some reason they had Daniel Kip Komen ranked #1 that year.
He only had the 8th fastest time in the world that year and he did not make the final at WC's.
He did have a few good wins, but none against Webb.
Lagat was #2 based purely on his Gold medal
Tarek Boukensa was ranked 3rd. He had the 2nd fastest time that year and finished 5th at WC's.
Baala was #4. He lost to Webb in Paris and didn't make the WC final (DQed). Don't know why he ranked ahead of Webb.
Ramzi was #5, based on his Silver at WC's. His only meet of the year.
Webb was #6. He had the #1 time in the 1500 and the mile and didn't lose outside of WC (8th place). He had just the one GP win in Paris.
He would have been ranked #1 if he won Gold. So that is the perfect example of not performing when it mattered.
Bronze medalist Shedrack Korir was ranked behind Webb at #7. So his medal race wasn't enough to pass Webb in the rankings.
4th place finisher at Worlds, Asbel Kiprop, was ranked 9th.
Alright, I'm done arguing with crazy. The vast majority of people who follow the sport are able to realize that Webb is a choke. You can keep living in your fantasy world.
Can't believe no one on here hasn't mentioned Gerry Lindgren.
I think the best example is Kyle Merber. NCAA record holder couldn't even make an NCAA final
* wrote:
Track and Field News ranking is not really a stat.
But they had Webb ranked #6 in 2007.
For some reason they had Daniel Kip Komen ranked #1 that year.
He only had the 8th fastest time in the world that year and he did not make the final at WC's.
He did have a few good wins, but none against Webb.
Lagat was #2 based purely on his Gold medal
Tarek Boukensa was ranked 3rd. He had the 2nd fastest time that year and finished 5th at WC's.
Baala was #4. He lost to Webb in Paris and didn't make the WC final (DQed). Don't know why he ranked ahead of Webb.
Ramzi was #5, based on his Silver at WC's. His only meet of the year.
Webb was #6. He had the #1 time in the 1500 and the mile and didn't lose outside of WC (8th place). He had just the one GP win in Paris.
He would have been ranked #1 if he won Gold. So that is the perfect example of not performing when it mattered.
Bronze medalist Shedrack Korir was ranked behind Webb at #7. So his medal race wasn't enough to pass Webb in the rankings.
4th place finisher at Worlds, Asbel Kiprop, was ranked 9th.
That mess of rankings just shows anything can happen in a final, especially a final with as many guys as close as they were in 07.
Easy to see why Baala was ranked ahead of Webb. He won Zurich over a much better field than the Paris race. Webb was 7th in this behind mostly guys who beat him at Worlds and didn't run Paris. This means Baala's results were 1st and 2nd to Webb's 1st and 7th. If we wanted to talk about chokers in 2007 Baala would have been a better place to start, but he got 4th/medaled in Beijing which goes again to show anything can happen in a final.
You seem to agree that an equal number of guys were over-ranked and under-ranked that year, which means Webb's #6 is about right. So he's ranked #6 and finishes #8 after leading much of the final lap. Some choke...
lip kitten wrote:
Alright, I'm done arguing with crazy. The vast majority of people who follow the sport are able to realize that Webb is a choke. You can keep living in your fantasy world.
Name any experts who agree with you?
Webb's ranking dropped to #6 only because he under performed with his 8th place finish.
Without that bad race he would have been ranked higher.
Hardloper wrote:
NO. TERRIBLE example. He was never in a position where he was expected to do that well in global championships. The fields were very good.
T & F news never ranked him much higher than #7 in the world I don't think. And T & F news is based on the entire season, not just the global final, because the guy they ranked #1 in one of those years DIDN'T EVEN MAKE THE FINAL. That just shows you how much of an accomplishment making the final is. If you think he belonged near the Olympic final in 2004 then you don't follow the sport.
In fact the fact that he could beat Lagat at US championships is PROOF that he had the ability to come up with a win even when the odds were against him.
So please don't even START with this shitty example.
At that time, but with the exception of Lagat, Webb was probably the most talented miler in the world. He's definitely the most talented U.S. miler ever. He ran 3:53 in high-school! To say he didn't have the talent to win Olympic gold?