110 isn't high mileage
110 isn't high mileage
Athleticsillustrated wrote:
Couple of points:
In regards to athletes leaving one coach for another, it appears that it could be as simple as a desire to live in Vancouver where year 'round training is favourable and some athletes that went to Guelph Uni, are from the Vancouver area, so it is common to want to go home. The west coast is a desirable place to live. Granted Richard Lee is a well qualified coach.
This is an 'interesting' response. How many athletes have left DST to train specifically with Richard Lee? And how many of those that left DST and moved to Vancouver weren't from the area originally?
I thought Rob Watson went to train with his brother for the 6 or is it 8 weeks before all his marathons now and heard Dylan also spent a fair bit of his training blocks away from Vancouver.
There were some great Canadian performances on Sunday by people who train year round in Ontario and the US, but you'd never think so when reading an athletics illustrated post. Instead you would think, 'oh man Lanni and Krista and Lioudmilla better move to Vancouver right away'.
bit off track wrote:
Athleticsillustrated wrote:Couple of points:
In regards to athletes leaving one coach for another, it appears that it could be as simple as a desire to live in Vancouver where year 'round training is favourable and some athletes that went to Guelph Uni, are from the Vancouver area, so it is common to want to go home. The west coast is a desirable place to live. Granted Richard Lee is a well qualified coach.
This is an 'interesting' response. How many athletes have left DST to train specifically with Richard Lee? And how many of those that left DST and moved to Vancouver weren't from the area originally?
How would you like your response, sir?
Be a good chap and type it in binary.
Very good sir.
0
1
For Speed River having talented athletes leave, yes there do seem to have been quite a few, especially from their university students who don't stick around, though, which is true of any program. The graduates don't seem to be sticking with the sport, though, and that's quite disheartening for the "top program in Canada." They don't seem to be fostering an environment of lifelong involvement.
Stellingwerff is still with the group (out in BC), and possibly Elmore, who sort of joined the west coast group a while back but it's been kind of unclear what's up with her. The women's steeplechase group seems to be considerably smaller, with Chantelle Groenewoud joining after Meredith McGregor, Lydia Willemse, and Dana Buchanan all left. Gen Lalonde is still in school there, though I think she's technically always been a member of her home club for carding purposes. The Frosts were doing the same thing, I'm fairly certain, but at least one of them is gone for grad school now, it seems.
They have a couple of new graduates (Seccafien and Aubry) who have stayed, but it seems like the majority don't stick around for long. Rob Jackson, who's been with the club since high school, left for grad school and seems to have given up on running. Matt Brunsting is gone. It seemed like Joe Brunsting quit running as soon as he graduated. Boorsma and Brett seem to be still there and Boorsma's healthy again but Brett hasn't been running well for a while now. Watson left. Konoval's done, but might still be in Guelph coaching though. Thorsen retired, but I'm pretty sure he just ran a 50k trail race anyway. Milne didn't run a PB in the 1500m for four or five years, so he switched to steeplechase. Rachel Cliff is back with Vancouver Thunderbirds now. Coolsaet and Gillis are obviously still there and running pretty well.
So it seems like most of those who have left have been the ones who graduated, but there have certainly been a few from the elite group.
It's good to see Watson running consistently well. It would be great to see him get down into the 2:11 or 2:10 area next year. Obviously what he's got going with his brother is working well, and he's clearly working hard.
Same with Lanni and Krista. They're both taking it seriously and improving. There are some problems with saying they should have gone in 2012, the biggest of which is that Dylan Wykes lined up for three marathons from October to April in order to hit his standard (Toronto, Lake Biwa, Rotterdam) and wasn't he planning on trying Houston at one point before Lake Biwa? When his races didn't get him the standard he sucked it up and went for it again until he got there.
Whether or not you agree with the standards (and most, including me, outside of AC don't appear to), Lanni and Krista had plenty of time from when the standard was released to the deadline for hitting it. If they were allowed in on appeal, what's the point of Dylan lining up for three marathons to get it? What's the point of all the other athletes who know the standards lining up again and again until they get them? There weren't any extenuating circumstances for Lanni and Krista. They simply didn't hit the times and they only tried once. They ran really well and they should have been on the line at the Olympics because the 2:35 standard should have been what AC went with, but they knew what they had to do and they didn't do it. Pretty straightforward, really.
Frabbit, I appreciate your attempts to explain why saying "These results prove that Marchant and Duchene should have been on the Olympic team" is an example of hindsight bias. Sadly, I don't think the people who disagreed are any closer to understanding the flaws in their reasoning. It's the Dunning-Kruger Effect in action:
Responding to two different posts here. Nowhere in any article at Athletics Illustrated is it written or inferred that an athlete from Ontario should move to Vancouver, but the reason why people often choose Vancouver or Victoria is for lack of snow and lack of below 0 temps. Old news.
110 miles per week is not much to who? If she was previously running 70 to 80 then 110 would be high, to her.
Yes, it might be high for her, but it isn't " high mileage "
"Noguchi went to China to train and, in 35 days, she covered 1,350 km. This is more training than the male runners do." (1,350km = 168 mpw)"
5 weeks @ 168 miles per week @ 6000 feet
another one wrote:
Frabbit, I appreciate your attempts to explain why saying "These results prove that Marchant and Duchene should have been on the Olympic team" is an example of hindsight bias. Sadly, I don't think the people who disagreed are any closer to understanding the flaws in their reasoning. It's the Dunning-Kruger Effect in action:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolved-primate/201006/when-ignorance-begets-confidence-the-classic-dunning-kruger-effect
I would not be so quick to dismiss us. When they were denied rising star status, I found it to be a ridiculous decision - at the time. There was no hindsight at all.
This weeked is just a cherry on the I told you so sunday. Entirely independent of this weekend, I believed then, and continued to believe (even after Moscow), that AC should be supporting these women.
[quote]not elite wrote:
For Speed River having talented athletes leave, yes there do seem to have been quite a few, especially from their university students who don't stick around, though, which is true of any program. The graduates don't seem to be sticking with the sport, though, and that's quite disheartening for the "top program in Canada." They don't seem to be fostering an environment of lifelong involvement.
quote]
I don't see this as a Speed River problem. A club can only do so much. Guelph is a small town with limited career opportunities. Once one graduates from University, unless he or she is going to be able to support oneself with running, it is career time - and that often means stopping running and moving to a new city for work or grad school, or whatever.
Speed River can't fund athletes to stick around, so I don't see this as a Speed River issue.
Speed River is basically UoG - UoG's recruiting continues to be top notch, so they are still doing something better than pretty much every other club in Canada, and most in the US.
If by responding you mean making an off-topic plug to articles no one referenced and avoiding questions then sure, this is 'responding'. The only person mentioned in this thread to choose Vancouver did so only after his first choice Guelph didn't work out.
BTW, the topic is Lanni being great and AC being bad.
Rising star or not, pretty awesome performances.
Nice to see people running full time and making progress.
I think that Governmental organizations like AC will always be limited in their effectiveness, as their energies are always directed towards activities that allow them to maintain their funding. AC is competing with about 100 other program areas within Heritage Canada and I am not necessarily even talking about other sporting organizations. For example, Parks Canada and the Official Languages organizations fall under the same Minister.
So really, everything AC do will be about managing expectations upward, so they can create the optics that they are a good ongoing investment that adds to Canada's unique social fabric. We put a high price on inclusiveness, which is why we would rather put equal funding into Paralympics than send everyone with an A standard.
Having said that, I think anyone with an A standard should get to compete. People who are motivated to run over 100 miles a week would find a way to get the funding to go to a competition if they didn't meet the enhanced A standard. Don't change the current funding model, just don't deny those who make IAAF standards the opportunity to pay their own way. Maybe offer refunds for those that beat the enhanced A standard in competition? So many creative options to consider.
I would throw some money in a Kickstarter fund for Lanni and Krista, and I don't even know them. I am just impressed by anyone with that level of dedication.
In 2008 the running community paid $18,000 worth of hospital bills for Danny Kassap, (who we sadly lost in 2011). I thought at the time that said a lot about the lengths we will go to support our peers.
As a footnote, over the past 2 decades I have made the acquaintance of many excellent runners (national champions and even D1 standouts) who just stopped competing and got jobs instead of pursuing the Olympics for Canada, because of policies like this and it is a shame to see A standard athletes give up. Who knows what could have been?
My response was pretty clear. You are correct, Lanni is being great, but AC is different now.
Who are you and what is your specific beef with AC? There is a new regime there and in all fairness should be give more than a few months to impress anonymous posters on message boards.
another one wrote:
Frabbit, I appreciate your attempts to explain why saying "These results prove that Marchant and Duchene should have been on the Olympic team" is an example of hindsight bias. Sadly, I don't think the people who disagreed are any closer to understanding the flaws in their reasoning. It's the Dunning-Kruger Effect in action:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolved-primate/201006/when-ignorance-begets-confidence-the-classic-dunning-kruger-effect
Thanks for the links -explains a lot. My biggest peeve is when people use proof by example on for all statements (not applicable here though). Somehow they don't seem to understand even when it's pointed out.
Frabbit wrote:
another one wrote:Frabbit, I appreciate your attempts to explain why saying "These results prove that Marchant and Duchene should have been on the Olympic team" is an example of hindsight bias. Sadly, I don't think the people who disagreed are any closer to understanding the flaws in their reasoning. It's the Dunning-Kruger Effect in action:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolved-primate/201006/when-ignorance-begets-confidence-the-classic-dunning-kruger-effectThanks for the links -explains a lot. My biggest peeve is when people use proof by example on for all statements (not applicable here though). Somehow they don't seem to understand even when it's pointed out.
The irony of the Dunning-Kruger effect is that one can never really be sure whether he (or she) is one of the incompetent ones - so I would not get too smug.
asdfsdfsdfsdfsadfsadf wrote:
I don't see this as a Speed River problem. A club can only do so much. Guelph is a small town with limited career opportunities. Once one graduates from University, unless he or she is going to be able to support oneself with running, it is career time - and that often means stopping running and moving to a new city for work or grad school, or whatever.
Speed River can't fund athletes to stick around, so I don't see this as a Speed River issue.
Speed River is basically UoG - UoG's recruiting continues to be top notch, so they are still doing something better than pretty much every other club in Canada, and most in the US.
I don't see it as a Speed River-specific problem either, because I think it's every club and school's problem, in Canada and in the States.
But if Guelph/Speed River wants to be held up as the premiere running program in Canada then they are going to get held to a higher standard as a result. I expect more from them because that's what they've been trying to make happen for years now. They want to be thought of as the best. So they need to actually do a better job than everyone else.
If they can't interest their athletes in lifelong involvement in the sport they are undercutting the top levels of the sport just like everyone else and they don't deserve any respect for that. University is not even close to the highest level, but they're still teaching their athletes to think of it that way, intentionally or not. You're either in university, sponsored and on track for the Olympics, or you might as well quit? Bullshit.
And if Speed River and UoG are synonymous then the athletes that go to Guelph and then quit the sport are absolutely Speed River's problem and responsibility, just like it's Windsor's/Windsor Legion's responsibility to develop the Windsor athletes and get them interested in continuing in the sport after they finish there instead of quitting like the vast majority of their CIS finalists do, or University of Victoria's responsibility to keep their athletes interested as they approach graduation, or Western and London Western TFC's responsibility that very few, if any of their athletes improve during their four years at the school, including the extremely talented ones they get, and UofT and UTTC, and on and on. It's not just Guelph. It's everyone. The school system is killing off the sport just as the athletes reach their primes, which is why there's no depth in Canadian running. But Guelph is going to get my criticism because they're the ones who want to be the best.
Their top notch recruiting is pulling in many of Canada's best high school runners, which means their recruiting is great. But if they're going to foster an attitude that you go to university and then quit the sport then that undercuts any kind of claim that they are promoting long-term development in their athletes or are doing better than pretty much every other club in Canada. Roping in some good athletes doesn't make you a good club. Making them better and showing them how to keep getting better would make them better. They're using them for a few years to make sure they keep getting team titles, just like everyone else. Once they get their trophies out of them - and if they're talented enough they'll have some of them run 3-4 events at nationals to make sure they get those trophies, or let them run injured for the points, which is just as bad as the worst school in the States - and after that they're done for good. Retirement at age 22.
These generally very talented runners are capable of improving substantially throughout their 20s and 30s, whether they're sponsored athletes, working full-time or going to grad school. Why are they quitting as soon as they finish undergrad? They haven't even started to reach their potential at that point.
And why would "moving to a new city for work or grad school, or whatever" also entail "stopping running"? That makes no sense at all. Did you know that there are runners in other cities too? Some people even have full-time jobs and keep running. Either you want to keep running and improving or you don't. Moving has nothing to do with it. Being in Guelph has nothing to do with it. Most of the runners in Canada don't live in Guelph. They somehow still run and compete and improve and have goals. Krista Duchene just ran a 2:28 marathon in her mid-30s as a mother of three. Lanni Marchant is a lawyer who managed to find a way to make her practice fit into her running goals. Jerome Drayton ran 190 mile weeks while working 35 hours a week. Even if you're not a pro you can run. I can only assume all those star recruits at Guelph don't want to run anymore by the time they graduate. And I have to say that's Guelph's problem, which makes it Speed River's problem.
I fail to see why this is Guelph's problem. The vast majority of collegiate runners compete while in school without the expectation of becoming pro or making a career out of it.
One of the beautiful things about track is how easily performance is measured. Unfortunately it also makes one's potential harshly clear. I see no reason why runners with mercier scores ~ 800 (3:47ish for 1500m, 10.5ish for 100m) should be expected not to "quit". For those that continue training for the sport, that is great. But at a certain point, the benefits of continuing are simply not worth the effort required of elite training.
Thanks not elite.
Canadian Runner:
"Drayton says he pushed his training up to 190 miles [300k] a week after hearing that four-time Olympic champion Lasse Viren, a 10,000m specialist, was hitting 210 miles [336k] a week. “Of course he wasn’t working at the time, so he could run three times a day,” Drayton says. “I started off slowly, working up to 190. It became uncomfortable mentally after 140 miles a week because of the work situation. I sat at a computer at work. I had done 10 miles in the morning. I kept sitting there thinking ‘Oh God, I have to do another 18 miles tonight.’ Saturdays and Sundays I looked forward to because you got an extra eight hours of personal life.”
And that's why they quit. The grind.
I saw Coolsaet running in the rain by himself on Monday.
It looked like a recovery run, putting in the miles for a
shot at Drayton's record.
not elite wrote:
asdfsdfsdfsdfsadfsadf wrote:I don't see this as a Speed River problem. A club can only do so much. Guelph is a small town with limited career opportunities. Once one graduates from University, unless he or she is going to be able to support oneself with running, it is career time - and that often means stopping running and moving to a new city for work or grad school, or whatever.
Speed River can't fund athletes to stick around, so I don't see this as a Speed River issue.
Speed River is basically UoG - UoG's recruiting continues to be top notch, so they are still doing something better than pretty much every other club in Canada, and most in the US.
I don't see it as a Speed River-specific problem either, because I think it's every club and school's problem, in Canada and in the States.
But if Guelph/Speed River wants to be held up as the premiere running program in Canada then they are going to get held to a higher standard as a result. I expect more from them because that's what they've been trying to make happen for years now. They want to be thought of as the best. So they need to actually do a better job than everyone else.
If they can't interest their athletes in lifelong involvement in the sport they are undercutting the top levels of the sport just like everyone else and they don't deserve any respect for that. University is not even close to the highest level, but they're still teaching their athletes to think of it that way, intentionally or not. You're either in university, sponsored and on track for the Olympics, or you might as well quit? Bullshit.
And if Speed River and UoG are synonymous then the athletes that go to Guelph and then quit the sport are absolutely Speed River's problem and responsibility, just like it's Windsor's/Windsor Legion's responsibility to develop the Windsor athletes and get them interested in continuing in the sport after they finish there instead of quitting like the vast majority of their CIS finalists do, or University of Victoria's responsibility to keep their athletes interested as they approach graduation, or Western and London Western TFC's responsibility that very few, if any of their athletes improve during their four years at the school, including the extremely talented ones they get, and UofT and UTTC, and on and on. It's not just Guelph. It's everyone. The school system is killing off the sport just as the athletes reach their primes, which is why there's no depth in Canadian running. But Guelph is going to get my criticism because they're the ones who want to be the best.
Their top notch recruiting is pulling in many of Canada's best high school runners, which means their recruiting is great. But if they're going to foster an attitude that you go to university and then quit the sport then that undercuts any kind of claim that they are promoting long-term development in their athletes or are doing better than pretty much every other club in Canada. Roping in some good athletes doesn't make you a good club. Making them better and showing them how to keep getting better would make them better. They're using them for a few years to make sure they keep getting team titles, just like everyone else. Once they get their trophies out of them - and if they're talented enough they'll have some of them run 3-4 events at nationals to make sure they get those trophies, or let them run injured for the points, which is just as bad as the worst school in the States - and after that they're done for good. Retirement at age 22.
These generally very talented runners are capable of improving substantially throughout their 20s and 30s, whether they're sponsored athletes, working full-time or going to grad school. Why are they quitting as soon as they finish undergrad? They haven't even started to reach their potential at that point.
And why would "moving to a new city for work or grad school, or whatever" also entail "stopping running"? That makes no sense at all. Did you know that there are runners in other cities too? Some people even have full-time jobs and keep running. Either you want to keep running and improving or you don't. Moving has nothing to do with it. Being in Guelph has nothing to do with it. Most of the runners in Canada don't live in Guelph. They somehow still run and compete and improve and have goals. Krista Duchene just ran a 2:28 marathon in her mid-30s as a mother of three. Lanni Marchant is a lawyer who managed to find a way to make her practice fit into her running goals. Jerome Drayton ran 190 mile weeks while working 35 hours a week. Even if you're not a pro you can run. I can only assume all those star recruits at Guelph don't want to run anymore by the time they graduate. And I have to say that's Guelph's problem, which makes it Speed River's problem.
The main point here is spot on. Furthermore, a group that has a disproportionately high % of very talented and motivated athletes due to excellent recruiting should have an even easier time keeping them in the sport. These same athletes would get lots of attention and guidance at (some) other Canadian schools and perhaps be even more likely to continue on after school with, say, Boyd as their coach, or even flat out skipping the cis scene and running with one of the stronger training groups while focusing on doing well in school.
Unfortunate that amazing performances by Marchant, Duchene, Lioudmilla, Wodak, Sexton, Gillis, Watson, and more partly leads to a discussion of Guelph instead of the many other training groups and solo individuals doing good work.