Kimetto shows that top Africans are not dopers.

I really don't see your point here. No one goes to Gabon or Niger looking for runners to sponsor and while I have no idea what sort of testing goes on in those places I'd imagine there is none or next to none. I'd also bet heavily that there are no coaches or agents in those countries looking to make a living by getting a cut of the winnings of runners in those places.

But if I'm an unscrupulous agent in a place where fast runners are plentiful and I see someone that I think could be a major winner if he got a little help why would the athlete's age or years spent in the sport make me decide not to do the same things with that athlete that I do with the other ones I work with?I have no idea whether Kimetto or any other athlete aside from those who have failed tests or been caught in a BALCO like episode is clean or dirty. Neither do you nor does the OP or any of us who post here. Some of us have opinions and some hold those opinions more strongly than others. But it's impossible to "show" rhetorically that any athlete or group of athletes is clean or is dirty.

So then Kimetto got fast enough in a year to get noticed and given dope, and then a year later is able to run 2:03? If he is fast enough to get noticed by some unscrupulous agent that quickly, then he's fast enough to run 2:03 without it.

Ryan Hall ran 2:06. It is no stretch of the imagination for me to believe that currently Africans can run 2:01 clean.

P-O wrote:

So he got a passport that said he's 10 years younger than he is, had the wrong name printed, and didn't reflect on it!? Or maybe he reflected, but didn't think it was worth it to do something about it. That is the mindset of these guys.

Why would he care? This guy, like most of his peers, probably rarely thought about leaving his province in Kenya, let alone the country or the continent.

This isn't some middle-class American who needs an up-to-date passport in case he decides to go to Cancun next week. This is a guy who grew up within 10 miles of where he was born and without running would have happily stayed right there.

A passport to most Kenyan farmers is as pointless as a Nepalese visa is to most residents of Michigan.

Galen Rupp Number on Fan wrote:

R U kidding me? He PROVES that Africans are dopers. He will now disappear after having won a big race and the dope testers won't be able to follow him back into the bush.

Yeah!

Just like Martin Lel disappeared!

And just like Felix Limo disappeared!

And just like Sammy Wanjiru disappeared!

Idiot.

rupp-certified saladbar wrote:

Why would he care? This guy, like most of his peers, probably rarely thought about leaving his province in Kenya, let alone the country or the continent.

This isn't some middle-class American who needs an up-to-date passport in case he decides to go to Cancun next week. This is a guy who grew up within 10 miles of where he was born and without running would have happily stayed right there.

A passport to most Kenyan farmers is as pointless as a Nepalese visa is to most residents of Michigan.

Isn't it a bit insulting to suggest that Kenyans are too ignorant and naive to realise that their passport has completely the wrong birthday on it?

Always seems odd that the apologists always go down the 'they're too damn stupid to know when they were born' route when it comes to the blatant age cheating.

Also, if they're quite as retarded as this, surely it makes them prime candidates for their Italian/Dutch/Belgian agent/doctor to just dope them up without them knowing?

Or perhaps they completely know what they're doing, both in terms of the age cheating and the PEDs.

I must be mistaken, but I thought it was that his name was misspelled by one letter on his passport, and this led the IAAF (or whoever) to confuse him with another athlete that is 10 years younger. He did correct them when they thought he had set an age record, so it's not like he's out to fool anyone...

Possibly. Kimetto was fast enough in a year to get someone to pay his way to Chicago. Maybe he was given EPO or something to get that fast. Maybe he wasn't. I have no idea. And there's no more reason to think that Ryan Hall is clean or dirty than there is to think that Kimetto is clean or dirty.

You can't reason that because Guy X is almost as fast as Guy Y and since we know Guy X is clean and since we know that Guy Y is probably better than Guy Y, Guy Y's performance is likely legitimate. The reason we can't know this is because we can only assume, not know, that Guy X is clean. It's an ugly cloud that hangs over the sport and calls the legitimacy of everything into question.

HRE wrote:

Possibly. Kimetto was fast enough in a year to get someone to pay his way to Chicago. Maybe he was given EPO or something to get that fast. Maybe he wasn't. I have no idea. And there's no more reason to think that Ryan Hall is clean or dirty than there is to think that Kimetto is clean or dirty.

You can't reason that because Guy X is almost as fast as Guy Y and since we know Guy X is clean and since we know that Guy Y is probably better than Guy Y, Guy Y's performance is likely legitimate. The reason we can't know this is because we can only assume, not know, that Guy X is clean. It's an ugly cloud that hangs over the sport and calls the legitimacy of everything into question.

Except for the fact that, unlike cycling, there hasn't been rampant failed drug tests by the sport's best athletes. How many top marathoners have been busted doping? I think it's relatively clean and I suspect we'll see 2:01 within the next 10 years, and that it will be clean too.

Too many people just see the time 2:03 and assume it is too fast to run without being doped. Just like people who thought it was impossible to run the mile in under 4 minutes.

We know that the greatest cyclist in recent years was doping even though he was never busted for it. I know there have been some failed cycling tests as there have been in track, but I don't recall "rampant" failed tests.

It's all opinion, but yes, I do think that 2:03 is faster than it's possible to run for a marathon without some sort of chemical aid for reasons that would require a much longer post. And even if it is possible for a clean athlete to run that fast, I think it's very unlikely there are as many who can do it as are doing it now. But I also know that I may be wrong here, as you also could be.

swahili dan wrote:

Except for the fact that, unlike cycling, there hasn't been rampant failed drug tests by the sport's best athletes. How many top marathoners have been busted doping? I think it's relatively clean and I suspect we'll see 2:01 within the next 10 years, and that it will be clean too.

Too many people just see the time 2:03 and assume it is too fast to run without being doped. Just like people who thought it was impossible to run the mile in under 4 minutes.

So you seem very convinced that the Kenyans/Ethiopians are not doping. That's all very cool..I've seen that sort of belief before.

You are correct. I noticed the drug test failures in cycling as well. I also noticed the track busts in Jamaica, USA, Russia, and others.

I would ask you if you are so convinced, if you can at least provide official documentation as to the number of drug tests per athlete in Kenya..especially off-season, and especially on these 2:03 runners. I know Russian athletes have been busted quite a bit, but then again they are one of the most tested nations, so it is no surprise. They are tested extensively throughout the year. How about Kenya/Ethiopia?

Come HRE enlighten us with ur insight into doping.

Let's suppose he's doping,if he can run 2:03 after only training for 4 years it proves that well trained kenyans would not need PED's to run such a time.

Personally i don't think he's doping. It makes the blood too thick and too viscious.

Nothing is better than nature, all PED'S have side effects, both long and short term.

trollism wrote:

Isn't it a bit insulting to suggest that Kenyans are too ignorant and naive to realise that their passport has completely the wrong birthday on it?

You don't get it. Can I assume you've never interacted much with Kenyan athletes, or even traveled to Africa?

First of all Athletics Kenya and/or Kimetto's management probably facilitated the passport even being granted. Most subsistence farmers do not have the documentation, transport, time or even inclination to deal with the behemoth that is the Kenyan bureaucracy. The overwhelming majority of Kimetto's peers (farmers, not athletes) will never hold a passport. This is nothing to do with "ignorance," but simple reality.

When these teams travel to major games, in many cases the athletes barely even TOUCH their own passports -- the chef de mission looks after it all.

When you live your whole life on one shamba and someone connects you to your first flight (TO TOKYO!) and an opportunity to make more in a day that you did in your entire life, you probably don't nitpick over the dates on your documents. That's not being "naive." That's being smart. To be "naive" in this situation would be to do as you suggest and make a big deal about the DOB.

Honestly, think a little. This is basically like someone giving you a trip to Mars to compete for $10,000,0000, and you risking not boarding the transport because your birth date is off.

kenyans are becoming just as bad as jamicans

and also not tested for away from races .

dirty as ,simples .

rudisha and kiprop dirty out .

do they implicate their coaches in doping

like renato or do they know better not to.

i can go to pharmacy and buy epo in kenya

so cant say to me not available to them .

also sure get other peptides like the lightness lr3 .

things like blood transfusions might not be possible

in such places but epo administering is simple out

and sure have ecomomy if some money left over from last race

what afew 1000 dollars or so for season .

managers probably do it all for them

and cant compare tack to cycling .

cycling is willing to expose its ped users

and dont care about legacys of its top athletes

as an honest sport .has had hct controls since

1999 only took athletics till 6 months ago.

but athletics sweep it under carpet

and do all it can to help certain athletes

continue to dope while stoping others and

then when career is all done and dusted

make them an ambassador to iaaf .

true and utter dishonesty ,twofacedness ,lie till the end

at the utmust level.

Haven't read through the entire thread yet, I'm on lunch and don't want to waste the time. Some thoughts regarding the OP's first batch of questions:

-That Kimetto was a farmer, does not mean that he did not run. As others from Kenya have posted before on this website, many Kenyans run their entire lives, but don't start training until their talent is discovered. At that point, their real training begins under a coach, and they refer to this as "starting to run"

-A Kenyan farmer does not need his own money to dope, just a dirty coach or agent who sees him as a potential world beater. They will shell out the money for him and collect a percentage of his earnings.

Your entire post is based on the idea that Kimetto is clean, and these pointed questions that you have don't present a much of a challenge to the skeptics. Go read Eddie H.'s tell-all on his career of doping and racing, it will give you some insight.

I don't have to provide shit, and I couldn't care less if you think they are doping. Guess how many times I've been tested in the last year? 0. I must be doping then. Kenya/Ethiopia have so many good marathoners. You can't tell me it would be cost effective for an agent to drug up every African who he think could run under 2:07, because there are thousands of them, and only so many races to run and only so much money to be had. I don't think they are all clean by any stretch, but I definitely don't think someone has to dope to run 2:03. That's asinine, just like your allusion of "I've seen that sort of belief before".

A lot of people in here and everyone else outside of Kenya are not going to understand them Kenyans and they are not going to be able to compete or beat, (How can you compete with who you don't know!) Kenyans are peculiar people and they know it and they will keep laughing at the rest of those who accuse them for they don't know what they are doing? A lot of people time and time again have tried to give reasons why Kenyans run the way they do, few people seem to belief it and other belief what they want to belief. There are Dozens of Kimetto's waiting for their time in Kenya, Geoffrey Mutai said, there are young Kenyans who are able to run faster than him, He was talking about Kimetto at that time. The one secret that sets the foundation for all the success is the initiation that the Kalenjin put their young man through into manhood. The young boys are put in seclusion for 1 month or longer and they are inflicted a lot of pain that few young men everywhere else got to experience, the boys are taught how to be tough, how not to chicken out, how not to give up and always fight to the end. The process of initiation is a backbone that Kalenjin and other boys who go through the same process like the Kikuyu (wanjiru) kamba (makau)rely on and get their strength from when things get tougher. The culture is to blame for shaping these young men into World beaters, you can blame it on doping all you want since it is the laziest way out. If you guys really want to know these people, go live with them, sturdy their culture, see how they carry their day to day activities, eat what they eat and you have a right to say wherever you want to say after that.

Runthemhillsboy wrote:

The one secret that sets the foundation for all the success is the initiation that the Kalenjin put their young man through into manhood. The young boys are put in seclusion for 1 month or longer and they are inflicted a lot of pain that few young men everywhere else got to experience, the boys are taught how to be tough, how not to chicken out, how not to give up and always fight to the end. The process of initiation is a backbone that Kalenjin and other boys who go through the same process like the Kikuyu (wanjiru) kamba (makau)rely on and get their strength from when things get tougher. The culture is to blame for shaping these young men into World beaters, you can blame it on doping all you want since it is the laziest way out.

Doesn't sound much different than Marine Corps basic training. Maybe there are some 20 something USMC veterans out there who have a 2:03 in them?

Does the Marine Corps have their penises strip of the foreskin without numbing drugs? No. Does marine Corps have their bodies rub with painful numbing plan than paralysis your skin for hours?, No.