captainrobbo wrote:
I see a letsrun.com dream 100m taking shape:
Sprintgeezer
Johnson 1.0
Cam Levins [blocks optional]
Galen Rupp [blocks optional]
Mo Farah [12.9 - provisional]
maybe coach d gets a lane?
How could you possibly omit SHREDDED, RIPPED XFitguy...?
I'm with you on that - see subsequent post above. We may need a B heat...
In an interview after Ben said he only found out about the race 3 weeks ago. He was quite winded after and said he would have liked a couple of months to prep. I have a hard time believing there are still positive effects from drugs taken 20 years ago.
As for a from the blocks time; I've run 12.8 and I wasn't moving anywhere near that fast. He wasn't going full when the guy handed off so I wouldn't adjust a full second. Also his 2 foot take off was his strongest point.
[quote]Confused Briton wrote:
Not sure why that video's labelled 2 for 2. It's the same race from a different camera.
[quote]
The Pro am relay had 15 teams with two qualifying heats at 6:30. The top 8 ran in the final. Ben ran twice hence the second video.
Sprintgeezer wrote:
lol, Ben was just striding, ticking off the distance, to the line.
I would match race Ben any day, but he knows I might beat him. I could muster an 11.5/11.6 for that race for sure!
I like Ben, I always have. I don't know why. There were plenty of guys around doing the same thing, they were all just a bit "off", if you know what I mean.
Ben seems to have dropped some weight recently, looking good.
What you guys don't know about Ben was that he was totally a sprinter. Everything about him was focused on sprinting. When you were around him you felt it. Even just sitting there in the bleachers, he was a sprinter. He's grown and expanded his endeavors over the years, but that core is still there.
He was like a religious artifact, like a living Buddha. He was the touchstone of sprinting. If you ever felt like you were off-track, wandering, or unfocused, all you needed to do was to think about Ben.
He still is that, for me. Guys like Lewis and Bolt, they have too many other interests and activities to be a sprinting touchstone. Too much media, too many French Open appearances, too many music videos.
Ben was, and still is, the reference standard.
There is no doubt that he retains some benefit from massive use. Like Blake, and unlike Bolt, I think he experienced permanent structural changes from his use, and so there is no way he could be considered to be competing "cleanly", even at age 51. He changed. His muscle fibers split. Like somebody said, his muscles had muscles, and they still do.
That guy is no joke. He is a monster. I saw him do things on the track that to this day I have not seen re-created, as much as I rave about things like Bolt's recent perfect start in Rome.
Good for Ben, I'm very glad that he is welcomed in such a race.
As for re-creating the 1988 field, no. That type of stuff is pathetic. The moment is gone, to attempt to re-capture some of the feeling only diminishes the original experience.
This is exactly the kind of posting LRC needs more of (not more rupp-certified salad bar drivel or SPMBLNF nonsense. Thanks for the interesting and expert insight, Sprintgeezer.
Hey Sprintgeezer, great post, man. Do you happen to know how Ben Johnson makes a living these days? Is he working somewhere, or does he still somehow have some cash flow coming in from his heyday? I'm curious how a dude like him makes a living after it all comes crashing down.
right-o wrote:
[quote]Sprintgeezer wrote:
This is exactly the kind of posting LRC needs more of (not more rupp-certified salad bar drivel or SPMBLNF nonsense. Thanks for the interesting and expert insight, Sprintgeezer.
Geezer is solid always, even trolls secretly respect him. When I grow up, I am going to be like him
It looked like he was barely trying. I am sure he could run much faster, but would risk some major injury. He does not look fit to me. If he got serious about work-outs, I bet he could tear it up - although not in any sanctioned races.
I can't believe there is any serious analysis of this "race."
Let's analyze Bill Cosby's race here:
ben was guility but was over punished and villiafied
Over punished?
He got a 2 year ban the first time.
Then a lifetime ban the second time.
Now it's 4 year and then lifetime.
He did take the fall for everyone.
No way was he the only one using in those races.
They made him the poster boy for dirty athletes.
If Carl was using, then I think it's much worse to get a Gold for a second place finish.
I fully expect that 20 years from now, somebody else will be writing the exact same thing on this board, with the name "Bolt" in place of "Ben", referring to the purity of the 9.58 in view of the 9.40 somebody just put up.
Similarly, there are guys older than me who say that Ben was nothing compared to the absolutely pure legends of the 1960's, guys you've likely never heard of, but who did amazing things especially in the 100yards, and guys who had absolutely no commercial exposure to speak of, unlike Johnson who was involved with corporate interests like Mazda and Diadora. Houston McTear, Tommie Smith, and many others who were as fast, but whose names are known to only historians of the sport.
Every generation has its greats. The only different things about Johnson, I guess, are that he was the first to be involved in a global, real-time media event, and that he was the first to represent something that was different from that which was considered to be even attainable--not just to spectators and the everyman, but to his competitors and to all sprinters.
For me personally, he was different because he was my neighbor, in the same club, on the same track, just the same as dozens of other guys, only faster, more intense--but not alien or foreign. Does anybody remember the "Be like Mike" campaign? There was a similar thing with Johnson, and I was just younger enough, by 6 years, to have seen all that at various stages of Ben's development.
With Jordan it was "air" and the tongue; with Johnson it was the start and the muscles. I guess that's one other thing, unlike guys before him, he represented something new: a new start, a new way of sprinting the 100m that hadn't been seen before, which I guess for some of us created the impression that at least some of his greatness could be emulated by adopting his technical differences (usually to our detriment!).
Bolt is kind of the same--not different in technique, but in proportion. Whereas you could try to re-create what Johnson was doing by copying his technique, with Bolt you can't, but we might see a selection effect of proportion, if he has the same type of effect as Johnson had. We have seen a succession in the Johnson series, with Blake the most recent and fastest-yet incarnation, so the Johnson concept, at least part of it, resonates through the timeline of the 100m. We will see if Bolt has the same effect, maybe guys like KBC are the thin edge of the wedge to come.
Ben was historically unique, but I guess all the greats are. To me he was personally important. In the intervening 25 years I have met a lot of people, a lot of athletes--but still never so pure a sprinter as Ben. Other sports have their pure athletes, guys who are 100% that sport--guys like Phelps come to mind. Compare Phelps to Lochte, and you have Ben compared to Bolt.
No, he wasn't going fast here. No, he wasn't trying hard. Yes, his contact time is incredibly short. Yes, he still has the same form. Yes, he's old. Yes, he's fun to watch, because his form and physical appearance give the undeniable suggestion of 9.7x or faster. Could he still be the fastest in his age-group? Nobody knows, because at this point, as in all points in sprinting, it is about who can stay uninjured, not necessarily about who is intrinsically the fastest.
But the suggestion of 9.7x is still there. He's kind of like a Lambo, or a Ferrari--he looks fast, even when he's moving slowly, or even standing still. I hope he continues to do this sort of thing.
Great post - thanks for sharing your thoughts/insights.
A question: in other posts you've seemed very down on Blake. Am I correct that you really don't like Blake, and if so, why not?
Comparing this doping cheat to Lord Buddha is sacrilege and offensive, even in jest.
Not if you're not a Buddhist.
Mtn Dew wrote:
If Ben Johnson was supposedly an amazingly talented runner who was also a hard worker and I think everyone can see was also taking all sorts of steroids how is it that a guy can run more than 2/10 of a second faster than that guy and be considered a clean athlete?
Johnson's time of 9.79 could easily be improved today for a variety of reasons:
1)He raised his arm above his head about 4-5m before the finish. How much faster would he have been had he not done that?
2) He was training 20 years earlier, training science/methodology/analysis is more effective today
3) Recovery science is also much better, so he could train even harder.
4) Equipment: Seoul was not as fast a track as the newer tracks. Modern shoes are even lighter and more effective at transmitting force.
5) He was wearing baggy shorts! Maybe short tights would help?
6) Steroid/Drug protocols/effectiveness has improved a lot in 20 years! This is only partly in jest, because are Bolt and others really clean?
Johnson himself estimates with all the advantages of today he could run 9.5x. All the above is just conjecture of course, to me the real deal would not be the record time, but an actual race with Bolt. No one started as fast as Johnson, would his powerful/fast start upset Bolt's rhythm?
Corporate relay was not an 'official' event.
dkny64--
When Johnson went 9.79, I was 21 years old and in school, concentrating on studying but looking forward to picking up high-level training again more seriously. It was a great atmosphere in those days, anything seemed possible, for anybody.
I remember my reaction to the 9.79 being "Oh, no." Because I was counting on the great atmosphere that had been created to give me models, motivation, and energy, and I was sure that it would soon be shot to all hell, I was mostly concerned, and sad for myself, at the same time as being blown away by the performance itself.
Had I had the benefit of any perspective, instead of having been so close to it all, I would have found it disgusting. You can win and even set a WR, but to win like that--egregiously--is disgusting, unless it is known at the time that everybody, and I mean everybody, is doing the same dope.
Blake's missed-start WR-quality 19.26 was equally disgusting, as are Bolt's 9.69/9.58/19.19, MJ's 19.32, Merritt's 12.80. I am disgusted by those performances because I have the benefit of perspective. The best analogies are 9.69/19.19/19.32/12.80, but Blake is in there as well.
We all have our demons in life. Blake's real choices in life at the moment are circumscribed as are all of ours, by his current psychology, and his actions have to be considered in that light. He is who he is, and we all develop as individuals the longer that we go through life.
He's like the second-born child in a family, in many ways. He grew up in Bolt's shadow. Bolt, the first-born--treated like a treasure, protected, can do no wrong, naturally assumed the mantle of seniority with all of its privileges and biases. Blake, wanting to prove himself equally worthy, always a step behind developmentally and therefore never considered the #1, wants the same attention and the same privileges and biases, although he will never get them, EVEN IF he ends up being faster than Bolt.
He will always be the little brother, the lesser. That's why he's still trying to find an identity that works for him, be it the beast, the alien, whatever. He's fighting a struggle within himself, one that he hasn't yet realized consciously, and one that he will never win. He needs to find a different fight. He has the singular misfortune of being Bolt's younger brother. I feel for him, and to some extent that excuses bad decisions that he might make.
Since I am convinced that has used/is using, I would like to see him test positive and serve a ban of a period of years, like Gatlin. The first problem is people doping, the second problem is that they are not paying a price for their actions.
That's why I'm so against guys like Blake, Bolt, Merritt, Jeter, Greene, etc (assuming that they have all doped)--because they haven't paid a price. At least Gatlin has paid, and Rodgers to a lesser extent. Ben paid a huge price.
So it's not really Blake that I don't like--I don't even know the guy. It's the fact that he has gotten a lot, and not paid enough. He is starting to pay this year through the natural system of injury, and that is why I do not feel badly for him at all, that he is injured. I hope he stays injured for a long time, misses out on lots of meets and lots of money, attention, and fame--and I hope that he comes out of the injury running within his natural envelope, because he way WAY outside it before, just as far as was Ben.
Um, yeah wrote:
Corporate relay was not an 'official' event.
I know. I was just trying to start a little controversy.
But it could get a little dicey allowing him on the track in the middle of an IAAF sanctioned meet.
I don't think an MLB team can allow Pete Rose to throw out the first pitch in a pre-game ceremony.
This is kind of like that.
They made an exception for Rose one year at the World Series for the all century team pre-game event but needed advanced permission to do so.
* wrote:
I know. I was just trying to start a little controversy.
But it could get a little dicey allowing him on the track in the middle of an IAAF sanctioned meet.
How so? How different was his appearance in the Corporate relay than if he'd been allowed on the track to demonstrate his juggling between 'real' races? Or to hand out awards? Or sweep the long jump sand off the track?
If the event in question is not a formal sanctioned event as part of the meet, then the meet can have this banned cheat do pretty well anything without worrying about contaminating the rest of the competitors.
Very intersting thoughts - thanks again.
Where does Tyson Gay fit in all this for you?