Can Kilian Jornet break the WR for the marathon?

In addition to Speedgoat and Pikes, lets not forget Sierre Zinal in 2011 where he beat Max by ~20 mins, and then of course the Zegama Marathon last year where he beat Max by a similar margin.

Not quite sure how those results play into the original question, but by the logic of some on these boards, if he's spanking a 2:14 road marathoner by such convincing margins then surely by extension he's at least good for a 2:05 marathon (which he's not).

These 'discussions' are completely inane. Very few, if any, people on the planet right now have the talent that Kilian has for moving fast in the mountains over variable terrain. Nonetheless, I'd be surprised if he'd get within five minutes of Max in a road marathon. Two completely different disciplines - and I tip my hat to Max for trying to play in both worlds, while also respecting Kilian for staying true to his passions and dominating in that world.

Gamera wrote:

I don't know about your statement "any runner that could make it at a shorter distance would". I don't know much about Jornet, but I seem to remember him hitting the ultra scene at a really young age, like winning that Mont Blanc 103 miles or whatever when he was like 18 or 19. So it seems unlikely that he entered the sport from a typical track running background, concluded that he wasn't going to be any good at traditional distances, and gradually moved up. It looks more like he entered ultramarathoning because it was just a challenge that appealed to him. Such people do exist. Not all ultrarunners are failed 5k/10k/marathoners.

No one that could run a WC mile, would instead chose to run a marathon.

It is the essence of the sport, you move up. It's true in HS, college, etc.. It's not a criticism. The guy is making money doing ultras, he wouldn't make any money running shorter races. Just like Galen Rupp is making money running 5ks & 10ks, but would be dead @ss broke if he were trying to get paid as a 200m runner.

He's one of the "world's best athletes" in a sport that virtually no one else competes it.

He's also using sockpuppet accounts to hype his film in the comments section of that NYT article. Hilarious.

I would consider Jornet, Carpenter, and Jonathan Wyatt(check his Mt. Washington time) world class athletes. So what if they don't race road marathons. These guys would be competitive even if the Ethiopians and Kenyans started running trail ultras. I doubt any of them made a conscious decision to abandon road racing so they could become ultra trail running studs. Don't really care. If you are a fan of running, don't see how you can't admire these guys. Matt Carpenter running a 2:52 marathon at 14,000 feet is f'ing impressive and anybody who doesn't think so is delusional.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/24/sports/othersports/24runner.html?_r=0

In part, Carpenter has owed his prowess to his physiology. His resting heart rate has been measured at 33 beats a minute, lower than those of Michael Phelps and many astronauts. In a test at the United States Olympic training center in Colorado Springs, Carpenter’s VO2 max, a gauge of the body’s ability to process oxygen, registered at 90.2, perhaps a record high for a runner. (Only Bjorn Daehlie, a Norwegian cross-country skier, has scored higher. Lance Armstrong recorded an 81.)

nay.

Help me out here. Shouldn't someone with a VO2 of 90 be able to run a marathon or a mile a lot faster than someone with a VO2 of 70? Why is Carpenter 20 minutes slower than Shorter in the marathon and 60 seconds slower than Webb in the mile? It seems like he should easily beat them. Does VO2 have no correlation with running times, or was Carpenter just not able to withstand pain? And there really shouldn't be much pain because with a VO2 that much better than everyone else he should hardly have been breathing at anyone elses pace. What good is high VO2 if you still run a lot slower than someone with normal VO2?

No one that could run a WC marathon, would instead chose to run the mile. It is the essence of the sport; you move down. It's true in HS, college, etc... Just like Usain Bolt is making money running 200m and 100m, but would be dead @ss broke if he were trying to get paid as a 5k runner.

AnonymousPseudonym wrote:

No one that could run a WC mile, would instead chose to run a marathon.

It is the essence of the sport, you move up. It's true in HS, college, etc.. It's not a criticism. The guy is making money doing ultras, he wouldn't make any money running shorter races. Just like Galen Rupp is making money running 5ks & 10ks, but would be dead @ss broke if he were trying to get paid as a 200m runner.

Let's Contemplate wrote:

No one that could run a WC marathon, would instead chose to run the mile.

It is the essence of the sport; you move down. It's true in HS, college, etc... Just like Usain Bolt is making money running 200m and 100m, but would be dead @ss broke if he were trying to get paid as a 5k runner.

AnonymousPseudonym wrote:

No one that could run a WC mile, would instead chose to run a marathon.

It is the essence of the sport, you move up. It's true in HS, college, etc.. It's not a criticism. The guy is making money doing ultras, he wouldn't make any money running shorter races. Just like Galen Rupp is making money running 5ks & 10ks, but would be dead @ss broke if he were trying to get paid as a 200m runner.

Turning my statement around makes no sense because that's not how the sport works. Never has, never will. Watch T&f for awhile and learn something.

I'm confused wrote:

Help me out here. Shouldn't someone with a VO2 of 90 be able to run a marathon or a mile a lot faster than someone with a VO2 of 70? Why is Carpenter 20 minutes slower than Shorter in the marathon and 60 seconds slower than Webb in the mile? It seems like he should easily beat them. Does VO2 have no correlation with running times, or was Carpenter just not able to withstand pain? And there really shouldn't be much pain because with a VO2 that much better than everyone else he should hardly have been breathing at anyone elses pace. What good is high VO2 if you still run a lot slower than someone with normal VO2?

The short answer is no. VO2 max isn’t necessarily a reliable predictor of ELITE athlete performance. More important is the speed at which an athlete can run at VO2 max. Other factors such as lactate threshold, training methods, nutrition, etc. figure into the equation as well. MC's marathon best of 2:19 actually compares rather favorably to Shorter's best of 2:10....

How does 2:19 compare favorably to 2:10? He would have been close to two miles behind. And if higher VO2 doesn't help, then why does carpenter brag about it so much? Shouldn't he have as many gold medals as Daehlie? I mean, Shaq can dunk because he is tall and chunky, not because he has accomplished anything, he can't be bothered to learn free throws better than any number of junior high girls. Carpenter can run Pikes because he doesn't have to breathe as hard as others, but he can't be bothered to put in the effort of the thousands of less talented runners who have better marathon and 10k times than him. What am I missing here about the importance of VO2? Why are his times so slow in relation to his massive talent?

No one that could run a WC mile, would instead chose to run a marathon.

It is the essence of the sport, you move up. It's true in HS, college, etc.. It's not a criticism. The guy is making money doing ultras, he wouldn't make any money running shorter races. Just like Galen Rupp is making money running 5ks & 10ks, but would be dead @ss broke if he were trying to get paid as a 200m runner.[/quote]

I don't get why it's so hard for you to accept that some people may be inherently different to you. You are basing your assumptions on an unwritten rule that might be written out as "I want to be as successful as possible (preferably financially successful) at a sport. Any sport will do, but my guiding principle in selecting that sport will be which one I have to invest the least time and effort in to achieve success".

Kind of like the Tarahumara tribe. They go around running hundreds of miles because they suck at the 100m?

And what does this mean: "It is the essence of the sport, you move up"? I would say the essence of the sport of running is finding a challenge and applying yourself to it, exploring your ability to push yourself, enjoying the camaraderie of like-minded people, etc. Not "moving up".

OK, I accept the basic premise that a track athlete will gravitate towards the event they are best suited for physiologically. But when it comes to something as radically different as travelling around the world doing challenging trail races in beautiful mountain environments, it's hard to make the claim that Killian Jornet would drop it all if he found out he could beat Usain Bolt in the 100m.

No one that could run a WC mile, would instead chose to run a marathon.

It is the essence of the sport, you move up. It's true in HS, college, etc.. It's not a criticism. The guy is making money doing ultras, he wouldn't make any money running shorter races. Just like Galen Rupp is making money running 5ks & 10ks, but would be dead @ss broke if he were trying to get paid as a 200m runner.[/quote]

I don't get why it's so hard for you to accept that some people may be inherently different to you. You are basing your assumptions on an unwritten rule that might be written out as "I want to be as successful as possible (preferably financially successful) at a sport. Any sport will do, but my guiding principle in selecting that sport will be which one I have to invest the least time and effort in to achieve success".

Kind of like the Tarahumara tribe. They go around running hundreds of miles because they suck at the 100m?

And what does this mean: "It is the essence of the sport, you move up"? I would say the essence of the sport of running is finding a challenge and applying yourself to it, exploring your ability to push yourself, enjoying the camaraderie of like-minded people, etc. Not "moving up".

OK, I accept the basic premise that a track athlete will gravitate towards the event they are best suited for physiologically. But when it comes to something as radically different as travelling around the world doing challenging trail races in beautiful mountain environments, it's hard to make the claim that Killian Jornet would drop it all if he found out he could beat Usain Bolt in the 100m.

Actually turning around your statement demonstrates the absurdity of your logic.Every runner gravitas to the event at which they are the best not to the shortest event at which they are the best.You need to ask yourself: If someones could run an elite time in the 400m and an elite time in the 10,000m would they definitely only race the 400? According to your absurd logic they would.

AnonymousPseudonym wrote:

Let's Contemplate wrote:

No one that could run a WC marathon, would instead chose to run the mile.

It is the essence of the sport; you move down. It's true in HS, college, etc... Just like Usain Bolt is making money running 200m and 100m, but would be dead @ss broke if he were trying to get paid as a 5k runner.

Turning my statement around makes no sense because that's not how the sport works. Never has, never will. Watch T&f for awhile and learn something.

Do you follow track & field? This isnt a logic question, it's what athletes do.

"it's hard to make the claim that Killian Jornet would drop it all if he found out he could beat Usain Bolt in the 100m."

Unless you are saying that Jornet is a total fool. Hopefully he would have more sense than than to keep scraping by when he could make bank winning the 100m gold.

I'm confused too wrote:

How does 2:19 compare favorably to 2:10? He would have been close to two miles behind. And if higher VO2 doesn't help, then why does carpenter brag about it so much? Shouldn't he have as many gold medals as Daehlie? I mean, Shaq can dunk because he is tall and chunky, not because he has accomplished anything, he can't be bothered to learn free throws better than any number of junior high girls. Carpenter can run Pikes because he doesn't have to breathe as hard as others, but he can't be bothered to put in the effort of the thousands of less talented runners who have better marathon and 10k times than him. What am I missing here about the importance of VO2? Why are his times so slow in relation to his massive talent?

carpenter doesn't brag about anything. i see you've probably never met the guy. i have. i lived and trained with him for a week. he's encouraging, humble, and friendly. not to mention a fantastic runner. i've run 1:07 and 2:22 and the guy put me flat on my @ss every single day. we did strides at 8,000 ft and i couldn't hang with him then, despite him being 26 years older than me. he doesn't say he can beat the top road runners on the roads. he does say (and has proven many times!) that he can beat them at altitude and in mountains. he made the move to the mountains because he likes it and could have more success there. so many of you love to hate on people for things they never said and ideas they never perpetuated.

Calm down fast guy. You're talking out your butt. go to http://www.skyrunner.com/bio.htm I don't think that I have ever seen such self aggrandizing as in MC's brag sheet. Wow, this dude lists every podunk race he ever was in, except for the notable omission of legitimate pr's. Where are the high school and college results? Where are results from any of the local high level races such as Bolder Boulder? Carpenter lists his greatest feat as competing in the olympic trials, where he finished four miles behind the winner and was beaten down by 51 other guys in 2:32. I ran 3 minutes faster than that as a 17yo high schooler and my VO2 is nowhere near 90. Maybe these sky marathons are hard, but this guy is nowhere near world or national class as a runner. Has anyone ever done less with this much raw talent? Has anyone ever sought out and gotten as much pub when their total lack of legitimate results warrants no pub or bragging?

Isn't high VO2max analogous to having a bigger carburator? You can get more oxygen to the engine. In running, you can get a bigger engine, higher lactate threshold-stronger legs etc. by training. If you have a big VO2max, then you can use more oxygen, and thus produce more power, which means you can run faster. If you can use 20% more oxygen, then you should be able to produce 20% more power. Why can't Carpenter and Journet run 20% faster than, say, Shorter at any distance? In fact, why are they way slower at every distance? Don't they train as hard? Don't they try as hard? Shouldn't they put more effort into training their bodies to utilize all that oxygen? Why is their oxygen utilization so inefficient?

I didn't realize you had to post your college times and compete in the Bolder Boulder to be considered world or national class. Sounds like Matt Carpenter owes you an apology for not competing in races which woud meet your criteria for world or national class. You are being intellectually dishonest with yourself if you don't believe MC is an absolute stud. I would walk around with my balls hanging out all day every day if I had his resume. And I would definitely list my results on my personal website so I could piss off mediocre college track guys who can only evaluate people based on their 5K PR.