How did El Guerrouj Escape While Many of His Countrymen Got Caught?

Did I say that everyone who gets toxoplasmosis is a blood doper? It is possible to get it from transfusions, simple as that.

Canova>God wrote:

There is also the theory that some guys are to big to go down. It looks very bad for the sport when the faces of the sport get caught.

Lance went down and he was by far the biggest name in cycling. Granted, it wasn't his sport that brought him down, but still...

Exactly, Lance did not get caught.

People wanted him taken down and they went after him.

If there is no one going after El G, he has no chance of getting exposed (if he did anything).

I was watching old 90s 1500m races on Youtube yesterday. It really struck me how they didn't seem like they were going that fast... and then I'd see the split and think "Holy Crap, that's 2 seconds faster than Kiplagat or Kiprop would come through." And that's just it. EPO made these guys look so smooth for so long, and even when they finish they don't seem to tie up, they just seem to have no ability to sprint any faster...

toro wrote:

He announced going into 2004 that it would be his last year.

He was either #1 or #2 in the world for 10 straight years.

Generally, that's a pretty long and solid career for a runner.

I never saw anything suspicious about retiring on top with a fairly long career in the bag.

His performances were suspicious, but not his retirement.

He did NOT announce this! In fact he was claiming for awhile that he would run world XC in 2005 - and then only formally retired in I believe 2006. His last race, however, was the OG 5000 in 2004.

The ioc had the opportunity to check his athens sample when they did the retests last year

Highly unlikely they would choose to bust a legend esp. in the lead-up to london

bad for business

anti-doping =window dressing

quote]

And so did Navratilova and half the Royal ballet touring China in the 80's get toxoplasmosis. Does that mean they were all blood doping?[/quote]

With all due respect, I must say that I question your objectivity since you seem like the biggest Seb Coe fan I know on this site. It's understandable that it's probably because he's a Brittish athlete. I do enjoy reading your track stories from the 80s but I'm just pointing out that your favorism for Coe might blind you a bit.

I personally don't think there is any proof that Coe is any different than El Guerrouj or Wilson Kipketer in terms of talent and running close to their best. So what makes anyone think Coe running high 1:41 800m is any more credible than Kipketer running a bit faster 17 years later or Rudisha running about a second faster than Coe about 30 years later. Excuse my laziness for not getting the exact numbers and times but I'm close enough; the point is that one can't question Aouita or Kipketer or El Guerrouj or Morceli or Lagat and somehow blindly believe that Coe never used any PED whether it's steroids or blood doping.

Russian women anything

Chinese distance women

all sprinters, esp. U.S./Jamaica

Moroccan distance men

Spanish distance M&W

Greek anything

Turkish anything

South African anything

Indian anything

Eastern bloc anything

Cycling anything

Baseball

Dot Connector wrote:

Russian women anything

Chinese distance women

all sprinters, esp. U.S./Jamaica

Moroccan distance men

Spanish distance M&W

Greek anything

Turkish anything

South African anything

Indian anything

Eastern bloc anything

Cycling anything

Baseball

Again, this is probably more true than false. Maybe we should just legalize all PED with limits. I kid I kid. hmmm...

While it is good for the sport for those in charge of doping control to worry about whether or not athletes are doping, I think it is very bad for the sport to have a group of posters bashing people for doing amazing things. I can comprehend a little disbelief, but it is incredible that everyone who does something good (like break a world record, win a major championships, or make a big jump) is automatically accused of doping. Not all athletes do drugs and cheat the system! It makes no sense that some posters have less faith in that people can and do amazing things, and more faith that everyone who is successful in the Track and Field world is doped up.

hah wrote:

While it is good for the sport for those in charge of doping control to worry about whether or not athletes are doping, I think it is very bad for the sport to have a group of posters bashing people for doing amazing things. I can comprehend a little disbelief, but it is incredible that everyone who does something good (like break a world record, win a major championships, or make a big jump) is automatically accused of doping. Not all athletes do drugs and cheat the system! It makes no sense that some posters have less faith in that people can and do amazing things, and more faith that everyone who is successful in the Track and Field world is doped up.

Lance Armstrong said a similar thing...

For me personally, I think a talented, healthy and mentally strong athlete doping will always beat a less talented, healthy and mentally strong athlete. We tend to focus on the top athletes but we'd be amazed to find out how many sub-elite or mid level elites dope but are just not talented enough or healthy enough or both to compete with the Bekeles, El Guerroujs and Gebrselassies as well as the Coes.

Canova>God wrote:

There is also the theory that some guys are to big to go down. It looks very bad for the sport when the faces of the sport get caught.

Justin Gatlin wasn't too big as the USA's Olympic Champion, top sprinter and 100m world record holder? The same for LaShawn Merritt, and for the stupidest of infractions. How about protection for Soboleva, Chizenko and Tomashova? A year after Moscow secures its world championships, and two years after VTB signs a major sponsorship with the IAAF, they target the lovely Russian middle distance runners and find a sophisticated scheme to evade detection. That's biting the hand that feeds you. Someone who is concerned with keeping that Russian money flowing would want to insulate them for tests, not target them.

And despite the obvious, people still come up with the most bizarre theories that somehow tests are cherry picked.

Where did you pull these brown-tinged numbers from?"They" had a proper test for EPO in 2000 (Syndey Olympics). Niklas Axelsson tested positive for EPO in 2000.In 2002, the IAAF introduced EPO testing both in and out of competition, the first international organization to do so.If we need reasons to believe, the chance El G was clean is roughly between 0%-100%, inclusive. The debate is still worthy, but baseless.Guilt by association, and best times are valid, but weak reasons to suspect doping, and need to be corroborated with more before we can escalate beyond suspicion.And the alleged lack of testing doesn't mean he wasn't clean. Stronger tests might have shown the same thing.

just sayin wrote:

rekrunner

they didn't have proper testing 'til 06

0% chance he was clean-hardly worthy of debate

why does it matter?

-there's clean guys who lost out for a start

and he's been tryin to fool us

Of all those names, I only saw one reason to suspect Aouita (his alleged actions in Australia).It's equally credible that the rest are clean.

I am sure that Steve Cram was clean, and he told me personally that he believes that Seb Coe was clean too. El Gerrouj wasn't necessarily better than them, he was more of a 1500/mile specialist, which makes his 5000m Olympic Gold even more special.

I think all of the World Records can be broken by quite a big margin without drugs for the simple reason that athletes can and will improve their technique, which is the only real area of development for speed endurance.

You appear confident with your posts on this subject, with your "I won't believe it till I see a positive test". You my friend are the same fool that probably defended Lance Armstrong and probably bashed his teammates that came out against him as jealous a-holes. Don't be so gullible.

If you have a guy with teammates that are getting caught doping left and right, and one teammate has "rabbited" your most important races, how can you not suspect that the leader in the group? Do you really believe El Guerrouj did not know his teammates were doping, that he was shocked to find out Adil Kouch used illegal PED?????? Are you that gullible?

Think about it.

Kyzer Sozenator wrote:

There is also the theory that some guys are to big to go down. It looks very bad for the sport when the faces of the sport get caught.

I actually thought of that one but I just don't think it's as much of a factor as what I wrote above since Marion Jones was outed and we know how big of a star she was internationally. That pretty smile and welcoming face and beautiful body, oh how perfect she was for promoting Track and Field. I guess your point stands that the 'big stars' can only be protected as long as possible before the 'organization' turns on them. Care to expand on your thought?

Jones wasn't outed by testing, she was convicted of lying to the feds about taking drugs.

Jono

i too believe steve cram was clean but your statement that wr's can be broken clean by a big margin is silly

which wr's?

they can't!

cram as you prob know was a big el g fan

i wonder if he still is today with the benefit of hindsight?

i doubt it!

El G poetry in motion.