THREE KENYANS BANNED FOR DOPING

The money in the marathon is precisely the reason why the doping has taken over the marathon.

That argument does not hold water. Money has been there in the Marathon for 30 years. With inflation, it was probably more money than is available now. Track racing had the same structure it does now also. Why do you think Steve Scott ran 136 sub 4min miles? He had to earn a living off pretty weak prize money so he made it up in volume. KK made $450k in 2002. Marathon money is significantly better now? BS.

And making only a few hundred bucks for a sub 13 is also the result of doping.

So it turns out solinsky, rupp, ritz, teg, mottram are the only humans capable if running sub 13 clean. Just like us postal was capable of dominating the tour de france even though evryonr else was getting caught doping. GOD BLESS AMERICAN EXCEPTIONALISM.

grizz wrote:

To save everyone some time- J.R. has posted in the past that germ theory is also a conspiracy to promote drug companies' profits.

Thank you for pointing this out.

the bruh wrote:

So it turns out solinsky, rupp, ritz, teg, mottram are the only humans capable if running sub 13 clean. Just like us postal was capable of dominating the tour de france even though evryonr else was getting caught doping. GOD BLESS AMERICAN EXCEPTIONALISM.

And also BLESS KENYAN EXCEPTIONALISM and the many unknown surprise 2.04-2.06 marathon runners.

The most interesting thing is that now they have baseline blood levels on so many of these guys during training.

In modern times, it is becoming illegal to be healthy.

I wouldn't be surprised if sponsors(shoe companies), agents, race directors, and doctors(aka drug dealers) are colluding together in all of this. Motives are different when profit is involved.

The loser in all of this is the athlete. The trail goes cold to the others.

I think its clear some of you dont read properly , these tests were some time back and AK delayed the news untill they were pushed to do so , there are clearly others in the pipeline and then lets see who denies ...its fine for Kiplagat et al to cry foul , but here is the proof that the german and others were right , high time it was exposed and please letsnot hear its just agents , there are doctors and kenyan agents deep into this and their names are already with WADA

To all the guys who have been saying that these Kenyan athletes are placing their trust in the wrong people and getting into doping as a result, Mathew Kisorio has already stated that the athletes participating in this knew/know exactly what they're doing.

Because many people not knowing anything about myself like to speak (and when you speak about something you don't know you are an idiot), I want to explain again my clear position :

a) I continue to think that EPO doesn't give advantages to the most talented athletes with the characteristics of Kenyans and Ethiopians (of course, I speak about top runners, and in my idea 2:07 in marathon is not enough for being considered a top runner, if you are Kenyan). This my convinction comes from the fact I have in the last 14 years many athletes at the top of their events, COMPLETELY CLEAN. You can believe or not in this, but I know. For example, I'm very happy if WADA goes to retest the samples of Shaheen in 2005, before the period of 8 years expires, and Shaheen is the WR holder.

b) I continue to KNOW (not to think) that doping is not widespread in Kenya. However, in the last 3 years in some part of Kenya some doctor and/or pharmacist, thinking was possible to have advantage from the situation, started to plagiarize some athlete (especially not strong, running domestic competitions), telling them could have advantage of more than one minute if taking some drug. So, never were the athletes going to doctors, but doctors to the athletes, and of course who had less education and less brain, fell into the trap.

c) I don't say nobody takes PED. I say the best don't take, and for the best it doesn't give any advantage. If I put a compressor to a normallt aspirated motor, it can earn a lot of HP, but if already the motor has the compressor, I can't have any advantage. This is what happens with the best runners from Eastern Africa : they already have the compressor.

d) Erupe was caught during an Out of competition test. This means that it was possible to have this type of test also in the past (no blood, but about urine we have more than 10 test every week), and he was tested because his biological profile was not ok. What happened to Erupe can happen to all the athletes in top 30 in the World, and if there are no infos about some doping for the best, is because their biological profile is completely ok, never showing any variations during the season (what instead Erupe and Kisorio had).

e) About not only myself, but also all the Kenyan coaches, we are in full collaboration with AK, denouncing what we know about some area of doping. Everybody must understand that all the clean athletes, all the coaches, all the managers and all the components of the Federation are the losers if everybody can think Kenyans run fast because of doping. For that reason, we all are in the first line for fighting this phenomen, THAT IN ANY CASE IS OCCASIONAL and doesn't involve the most part of runners.

f) Last thing : we try to teach to every athlete that, when they have a normal sickness (for example flu or cough), before taking the prescripted medicine, they have to call the doctor of AK (or, in some case, their coach or their manager) in order to know if the medicine is allowed or not. Personally, I fear the traditional medicines : they comes from trees, nothing is written, nobody knows what there is inside, but this is what African used for 5000 years, and it's hard to convince them this treatment can be dangerous for an athlete. One thing is EPO of Erupe, another thing something for throat irritation, that in any case can be doping (but the banned was cut to one year only for that reason), as happened to Moses Kurgat.

Thanks for posting Renato. I'm glad you have not forsaken these boards as I greatly appreciate your contributions.

Good to see that you are backing off.

What is your cutoff of the best? 2:05:37?

So loads of people are using PEDs, but not those producing the best performances. For them it would make no difference.

Yes. That makes a lot of sense...

Renato Canova wrote:

c) I don't say nobody takes PED. I say the best don't take, and for the best it doesn't give any advantage. If I put a compressor to a normallt aspirated motor, it can earn a lot of HP, but if already the motor has the compressor, I can't have any advantage. This is what happens with the best runners from Eastern Africa : they already have the compressor.

I just wanted to highlight this nonsense.

We know what EPO does. We also know that this is not something the best runners from East Africa (or anywhere else) have naturally.

You'll have to come up with a better analogy than that.

J.R. wrote:

Yes, I agree with this 100 percent.

The problem is not the athletes, who usually are ignorant about drugs - regardless if they knowingly take them, the same as the general population.

The problem is the drug pushers, producers, testers, the giant organizations that promote the drugs, and thereby, the drug believers! The whole thing is a marketing scam, that has absolutely zero significance other than the promoting of the illicit formulations.

The banning of athletes is nothing more than a deceitful scheme used to garner headlines, to further promote the drugs and trying to pretend that they have some benefits.

1. The problem is the athletes and the drug pushers.

2. Doping does work, science and experience have proven this. If you disagree you should back it up with some facts, you can't.

You're a silly conspiracy theorist who talks and make claims but have nothing substantial behind your words. Everything you say is empty. Want to contribute to discussions? Empty accusations/statements doesn't do that.

Grow up kiddo.

Interesting question. I don’t have an answer, and probably my idea about top performance is very far from your idea.

Anyway, I want to give you some statistical info, so you can decide what International level does mean.

1- In the all-time lists, at the end of last year the “cheater” Nixon Cherutich, with 2:14:45, was in position… 3311 ! Can he be considered an “international” athlete ? I don’t think so. He is an amateur, and runs 2:14 because Kenyan amateurs run 2:14. Does this fact be connected with “widespread” doping in Kenya ? I really don’t think, also because this amateur lives the most part of the year in US, and doesn’t have any link with Kenyan ambience.

2- In the all-time list, till now there are 1528 athletes under 2:12:00. Can be 2:12:00 considered an international performance ? Of course no, since there is no organizer in the World paying a ticket to a Kenyan running 2:12 for going in any competition.

3- Always in the all-time lists, till now we have the following situation :

athletes under 2:11:00 : 1040

athletes under 2:10:00 : 684

athletes under 2:09:00 : 452

athletes under 2:08:00 : 251

athletes under 2:07:00 : 123

athletes under 2:06:00 : 50

athletes under 2:05:00 : 26

athletes under 2:04:00 : 5

4- About last year only, we had the following situation :

Athletes under 2:05:00 : 11 (7 from Ethiopia + 4 from Kenya)

Athletes under 2:06:00 : 23 (12 from Ethiopia + 11 from Kenya)

Athletes under 2:07:00 : 43 (23 from Kenya + 20 from Ethiopia)

Athletes under 2:08:00 : 79 (44 from Kenya + 28 from Ethiopia, 1 from US)

Athletes under 2:09:00 : 123 (71 from Kenya + 33 from Ethiopia + 5 from Japan + 1 from US)

Athletes under 2:10:00 : 174 (100 from Kenya + 40 from Ethiopia + 9 from Japan + 4 from US)

Now, I want to show you the equivalence, in the list 2012, between the positions of the above athletes and the performances in other events (100m, 400m, 800m, 3000 steeple, 110 hs, HJ, SP, HT) giving the same position :

11th : 9.94 – 44.80 – 1:43.74 – 8:10.55 – 13.14 – 2.32 – 21.11 – 79.44

23rd : 10.02 – 45.01 – 1:44.65 – 8:17.85 – 13.31 – 2.31 – 20.69 – 78.28

43rd : 10.09 – 45.30 – 1:45.19 – 8:22.70 – 13.42 – 2.27 – 20.22 – 76.15

79th : 10.18 – 45.61 – 1:46.10 – 8:29.03 – 13.57 – 2.24 – 19.71 – 72.96

123rd : 10.23 – 45.93 – 1:46.74 – 8:33.98 – 13.72 – 2.21 – 19.23 – 69.90

174th : 10.28 – 46.15 – 1:47.27 – 8:39.29 – 13.83 – 2.20 – 18.66 – 67.26

And after this, I ask you : in your mind, being in US, do you think a sprinter running 10.18, a 400m runner able to do 45.61, a hurdler for 13.57, a High Jumper for 2.24, can be considered athlete of international level ? How many athletes from College are able to obtain these performances ?

And, if you are from Russia, do you think 72.96 in HT can be considered an interesting performance ?

Remaining in middle distances, is it for you a performance of international level to run 800m in 1:46.10 (how many specialists you have, able to run so fast ?) or steeple in 8:29.03 (very far from Jager) ?

Do you know these athletes NEVER have any chance to be accepted in any meeting, because their level is too far from the top ? And all these athletes are at the same level of marathon runners under 2:08:00.

In Kenya, several times we have athletes coming from a village without any background, joining a camp where there is some strong athlete from their village. If they have talent, after 6 months of training are able to run 30 km fast with the champion, after one year are ready for running 2:06:00 in their first competition ever.

This fact comes from the following points :

1. They have a good talent (not all, many don’t have), not yet a GREAT talent. For running one time between 2:05 and 2:07, if you are Kenyan you don’t need great talent, only GOOD talent. Who has great talent has the ability in lasting and winning big races for long time, who has good talent can reach casualy one very good performance, and after remains at medium level, for short time.

2. They don’t have mental limits. When they go in a camp, the only athletics they know is what happens in the camp. So, hard training as normal rule, fast long run as normal system, very tough fartlek as classic type of workout. And no fright about running fast in competition : in Dubai, with a split of 1:02:39 at HM, 23 athletes were still together…

3. They don’t have other things to do. In their camps, the only thing is running, eating and sleeping, for recovering hard training

I remember, time ago, there was a post where some idiot wrote “under 2:12 everybody is doped”. Of course, with this mentality it’s difficult to produce good marathon runners.

I had many Italians running under 2:12, with very little speed. One of them, Nicola Ciavarella, ran 2:11:22 when 34 years old, training once per day because worker in a school, having 30:22 of PB in 10000m.

So, when I see athletes with 28:30 of PB looking at 2:12, I can only argue they don’t know anything about the training principles for marathon.

The first step is to think of times as 2:07 or less like normal performances, if there is good talent.

And this is the reason because every year there are more athletes from Europe (and I hope from US too) coming Kenya and particularly Iten. The real secret is to make normal in the mind what before what not possible. This starts from the volume and the intensity of training, and after can be transferred to the mentality in the competition.

Till when the only argument is the doping of other athletes, never you can produce a good marathon runner , and its not a case that the more advanced specialists (as Galen Rupp) are part of some group with aggressive mentality in training and in competition.

Question Renato:

You say that top Kenyans wouldn't have any benefit from EPO, but what do you think would happen if Kenyans started using steroids as a way to improve their recovery? Remember, this would not bulk them up.

1) How would that affect them negatively?

2) How would that not have a positive effect?

this analysis of yours has little or nothing to do with the

fact that a 2:05 guy was caught and that EPO also helps

Kenyans. Please.