basic speed

I'm a big fan of Galen Rupp, so I'm going to advise something similar to what he does. He trains speed year round, and has shorter intervals on Tuesdays and longer intervals on Fridays with a long run on Sundays. You can follow this format and just tweak the schedule if you want to race on the weekends like have short intervals on Monday, long run on Wednesday, race on Saturday with a tempo run afterwards. Your daughter seems to run similar mileage to me(a high school senior), so here's the same workout plan I'm on right now:

Monday- 60 easy and 5-10 minutes core AM / 30 easy and drills and 8-10 strides PM

Tuesday- shorter intervals in AM / 20 min warm up run and gym session and 10-15 minutes core in PM

Wednesday- 60 easy AM / 30 easy PM

Thursday- 60 easy and 5-10 minutes core AM / 30 easy and drills and 8-10 strides PM

Friday- longer intervals in AM / 20 min warm up and gym session and 10-15 minutes core in PM

Saturday- 1hr45 min long run(Galen Rupp only does 1hr45 min, no reason to do more, doing more just takes away from training because it takes too long to recover)

Sunday- rest day(rest days allow for recovery to avoid injury and burn out, however if you're opposed to rest days, switch Saturday and Sunday then do a 40-50 min in the morning on Saturday and take the rest of the day off)

Notes:

Long Intervals- either 6x1600m with 400m jog recoveries, or a tempo running of 6-8k(I only do 6k tempo runs, but your daughter is welcome to go up to 8k, but no more is advisable)

Short Intervals- either 12x200m with 200m jog recoveries, or 8x800m at 5k pace with 400m jog recoveries.

Warm Up/Cooldown- for workouts do 20 min warm up jog then some drills and strides to loosen up the legs, and do a 20 minute cooldown jog after the workout

Workout Paces- for 6x1600m you start at about 92% of your 5k pace(i.e. for me 5k pace 81 per 400m, so 81 divided by 0.92 gets 88) and then every so often do them gradually faster(than the previous workout) until you max out at 5k-10k pace near the training peak; for tempo runs, just run fast at an even pace between 85-92%(depending on aerobic strength) of 5k pace; for 12x200m start at 2-3 seconds(per 200m) faster than mile race pace and gradually increase them each session until in peak training you max at 1-2 seconds slower than 400m race pace; for 8x800m, its just 5k pace so think of it as a good way to learn race pace/effort

Workout Structure- alternate weeks between the workouts so 12x200m and 6x1600m one week then 8x800m and tempo the next week then repeat again; when you consistently do the same workouts it makes easy to know that you've gotten more fit and by increasing pace instead of workout volume you train your body to run faster instead of just run the same speeds for longer

Gym Sessions- go to Flotrack.org and watch Rupp's weight room workout for ideas on what should be done in the gym; the whole purpose is to develop biomechanics to prevent injury and improve speed

Yearly Structure- after the peak race, take 2 weeks off, then 2 weeks of just easy runs, then 2 weeks of moderate training, then back into the training plan for 8-10 weeks of increasing volume and intensity, then 4-5 weeks at peak volume and intensity, then 4-5 week taper, do this twice per year(its what Salazar's athletes do; most noteably Rupp and Farah). This has no base phase, because base is stupid. You don't only do speed work 3 months of the year because then you lose the speed and have to get it back from scratch. You have to do year round speed even if due to the progression of speed in workouts philosophy, that means your workouts may be on the very slow range of things early in the training build up. The 12x200m and the gym sessions are good for developing the top end speed, while the drills and strides are good for developing the running form.

Increasing Mileage- Mileage should only increase 5-10 miles per week per year, and that may just be due to getting more fit and running easy runs faster. As you get more fit, warm up and cooldown could be increased to 30 minutes for each to increase mileage, while 60 minute runs are increased to 70 minutes and 30 minute runs are increased to 40 minutes.(over the course of several years, because you need to take a long term approach to be successful at running and reach your true potential like Galen Rupp)

Easy Run Pace- This should be done by feel. If they're done too fast to be recovered enough to do good workouts, then they need to be run faster. Based off Salazar's guys, easy runs should be done at about 72-76%(depending on how the athlete feels on the given day) of 10k race pace.

I think that covers everything.

broke dad wrote:

why? is running harmful? do you really believe someone that's gradually worked up to a 12 mile weekly long run over a period of years on a soft surface is hurting themselves? where is the evidence of that? she's had 1 minor injury in 5 years - & that only resulted in a total of maybe 2 weeks missed training.

Kenyan girls with "monster aerobic engines" aren't running for much more than 45 mins to an hour at a time. There's a huge difference there.

You're not thinking about this correctly. It's not "miles", it's time on feet at one time. If she were running that 12 miles in 90 minutes than it wouldn't be nearly the same, would it?

I'm not talking about injury, I'm talking about overloading her training in the wrong direction. You want her to run fast at a 5k so why in the world are you slogging out miles for 1:50 minutes? Regardless if it's on trails or not, that's just not conducive to what needs to be done for your apparent goals.

worst poster wrote:

I think the point is that its too much *time* running given her pace. Sure it may be 60 mpw but thats because she isn't Galen Rupp. For him that would probably be 100mpw and thats his job, to run.

You have to factor in pace when deciding how much time to run. The miles really aren't as important.

I would expect that she has gone as far as that training is going to take her. Not that its time wasted but I think you need to diversify to improve.

Take Salazars advice and learn to run fast.

Yes, this is what I'm talking about.

Well put.

NotAustin18 - all of the mileage there seems to be at the same pace? Would it not be best to have perhaps an easy run the day after a workout as recovery but the others a bit quicker.

I disagree with simply keeping the same workouts but increasing the pace as you get fitter. The idea of the workouts is to improve the strength of a certain system by adding strain slowly and continuously to allow for adaptation. Increasing the pace due to being fitter doesn't increase the strain, just shows you're getting fitter. Increasing the pace and then progressing the workout is forcing the adaptations.

Also, as you get fitter and faster you may actually become too fast during a particular workout and working a seperate or mix of systems. Its more efficient to train 'one' system at a time. As best you can anyhow.

Seperating the workouts into long and short is also going to cause confusion. Splitting into short hills/intervals (speed), long hills/speed endurance work, VO2 max, lactate threshold, tempo, aerobic capacity, recovery. This gives a much better idea of the seperate areas to work on and also weaknesses/strengths.

For instance, long intervals and tempos are completely different kinds of work.

Having a two week cycle allows for every system to be worked on with the confusion of continuously having to switch things around.

Your addition of strides, drills and core is good. Perhaps just having 2-3 30min core sessions a week would be more effective.

I think the copying of Galen Rupp's schedule, or something close to, is a bad idea. A program should be based on the level and age of a runner, as well as many other factors. Doubling most days still at high school. This bit being completely my own opinion from personal experience. But...

Where is there to go? What good is it doing? Its not the idea of burning out, just that the aerobic system progresses slowly over years. The system will improve at a maximum pace at an optimum level. Beyond that level of work will bring little extra effect because the system is already improving at the max rate. All that will happen is the athlete will become tired. Rupp has spent years slowly upping the mileage, or essentially, slowly increasing the strain to force adaptation.

Having looked properly this time I think the doubles you suggested are more reasonable than I first thought. I'd do 40-50AM and 30PM. Or even switch. Easy in the morning and a longer steady in the evening. Personal preference.

TopCat wrote:

F - Aerobic hills (the longer hill session I added. Possibly 40 - 60s if not a little longer if you wanted to keep it more aerobic and slower. Shorter hills could be held off a month or two. Your 4 8second hills with full recovery (5mins) could be done before this.

First, thanks for your great input. I'm sure a lot of runners like me are following this thread. My question is why would she hold off on the shorter, faster hills? To me, it seems that both are aerobic. Why not start with short hills at, say, 15sec and build up to 25sec? Or, alternate weeks of short fast hills and longer endurance-paced hills? Is it an injury concern?

sounds like the 1980s-90s 'less is more' philosophy. I guess everything is cyclical, even training trends.

Hey TopCat - No, we haven't done circuits before, but I had them in the schedule to begin sometime this Spring. All our general strength/mobility exercises last year came from coachjayjohnson.com. I really like what Jay recommends, as far as the Myrtl, Cannonball, leg circuits, etc.

We're repeating the Johnson routines currently, but I'd intended to gradually push into more challenging routines. Was thinking about Gambetta style leg circuits and possibly adding some basic lifting, i.e. squats, deadlifts, as well as more challenging core work.

The only thing I've seen on circuit training is that it was a favorite of Coe. But I have no clue where to start with circuits? What do you do? Burpees, push-ups, plyos + short bursts of running, then repeat?

Would love to get your take on specific circuit training routines & what sort of progression is advised.

Thanks - I appreciate your willingness to share some good info here. It's been very helpful!

broke dad,

If you haven't read this you should

http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/solving-5k-puzzle

Don't let runnersworld in the link throw you.

You have done a great job in getting you daughter to like running. To do as much as she does, she will most likely continue to run for a long time. The next question is does she run to race or just run because she loves it.

You have set a huge goal for the two of you. If she doesn't love to race, the odds are against you. Having said that, what most everyone is advocating is not about less is more. If you had 5 more years your way would work. You set the goal we're trying to get you there. Eventually, once you have seen both sides you and she can decide what works best.

Finally, as to how much Kenyan kids run, they don't run 3 or 5 or 10 miles to school and back at a single pace like a training run for them it is all play. They leave the house walking, meet up with another kid and race. When the meet up with the next kid, his mother has told him he is late and so they all run for a while, then race to the big tree. They might be kicking a ball and playing keep away the entire time. They practice all paces like you daughter has to start doing.

that's a great link. Thanks for sharing it. I had seen it before & I marveled at Magill's results with himself. I turn 47 next month & I absolutely could not imagine breaking 15 in a 5k..

You make an excellent point I think about 'my way' being preferable for a 5 year time frame, but perhaps not being optimal for the results we seek 9-10 mos. from now..

When you read Magill's article, did you not find yourself thinking "It can't be this simple?". I did. Maybe I need to overcome that a bit..

I read the article over again just before I posted it. I kept thinking, exactly how fast should the 5k reps/long hills be? I think this question is especially important for you.

In going from nearly all aerobic training to a balanced approach to 5k, pain could become part of training like TopCat said. This is important for improvement but it also may not be the part of running your daughter likes. Balancing the right amount of pain is difficult, just remember she is trying to learn to run fast by training not hard.

Learning to run hard should mostly come during races but running hard is an important enough skill that you should plan to race fairly frequently. No month should go by without a race and every 3 weeks would be better.

Very.

well.

Said.

I was saying to someone the other day. Grab two 13yo kids, give them the same aerobic training. Who will win over 1500? The faster one.

broke dad wrote:

sounds like the 1980s-90s 'less is more' philosophy. I guess everything is cyclical, even training trends.

Uh, no. Sounds like you're stuck in your own mixed-up world of training.

I don't know why I have to keep repeating it over and over again, but apparently you're not following.

Doing 1 hr and 50 min runs on top of 70 and 90 min runs is NOT CONDUCIVE for someone wanting to break 19 in a 5k!

If you want more volume (and I'm repeating myself here), DOUBLE!

But you DON'T go and spend so much time running so slowly at any one time. It's pointless.

And completely irrelevant to the thread at hand.

did you check the thread title or read my 1st post?

to everyone else: do any of you see any benefit for a HS JR girl with a 19:5X XC PR doing runs of longer than 70-80 min. in order to run 18:3x in 9-10 mos., other than a weekly long run? I think I know your answer, but just looking for someone to make an argument in favor before I surrender ;)

broke dad wrote:

did you check the thread title or read my 1st post?

to everyone else: do any of you see any benefit for a HS JR girl with a 19:5X XC PR doing runs of longer than 70-80 min. in order to run 18:3x in 9-10 mos., other than a weekly long run? I think I know your answer, but just looking for someone to make an argument in favor before I surrender ;)

Yeah, and I've addressed it numerous times.

One, basic speed has NOTHING to do with breaking 19. It is NEVER a limiting factor in any distance over 200m. Ever. I even outlined the very simple and basic things necessary to break 19.

Two, the current training plan she's on is ridiculous and her single runs are MUCH too long.

In summary, the two massive problems you seem to have with this training is that you're focused on long runs that have nothing to do with a 5k and you want to focus on basic speed which also has nothing to do with a 5k.

My final suggestion: focus on things pertinent to the 5k!

Karma Police wrote:

I was saying to someone the other day. Grab two 13yo kids, give them the same aerobic training. Who will win over 1500? The faster one.

To further expound on this nonsense and actually make it relevant to the thread, the "fastest" kid with the most "basic speed" may NOT win.

The 1500 has nothing to do with basic speed. NOTHING.

And to anyone who hasn't actually sat down and thought this through, ask yourself why any 100m, 200m, and 400m runners aren't winning 1500m races!

Because basic speed DOESN'T play.

Fisky - No problem in alternating. I would. The poster seemed to be concerned with the intensity this early. I'd rather him start the shorter hills at some point than scare him away all together!

Firstly, I'll apologise for my odd post timings. Currently in the 'wrong' country.

Circuits - easir to start than you think. The first year or so is just being up the basic strength. So essentially it wont be a proper circuit, just a more structured core routine. Planks, sit ups, press ups, upper body med ball work, single leg squats, back ups(for lack of better name), burpees, bridge, body weight hamstring curls, heel raises are all good. We do this on a 60s on, 45s off just to make it a bit more tough than a normal core rountine. Of course there are many other exercises you could do. That was just a quick list off the top of my head. Your own research should be suitable for this. There are many threads/sites with good exercises. I'd steer clear of too many upper body weights. Once the basic strength is there some stability-core work using swiss balls or med bands can make many of the more simple exercises much better.

Forgive me for not giving many details on these more complex ones. It'd take years for me to explain.

The best way is to read around a little and write anything you see down. Build your own array of exercises since nobody can fit in every single one. Your daugther may have weaknesses in parts that I never had to work on and visa versa.

Swtich the routine around during the week too. It'll get too boring and competitive if you do the same routine each time.

After this, some drills and hurdle drills to keep the body moving in a sraight line and to improve coordination and hip mobility. These are really hard to do and improve without a knowing coach watching and advising.

Basic plyo such as bounding, high skipping, straight leg running, hopping, jumping(eg 5 full jumps for max distance). Idea is to work on having a minimum contact time with these.

Finish off with a few strides and if not too tired in the legs, some accelerations of 100m. Or possibly work up to 50hard, 50float, 50hard with a quick but fluent change of pace.

Hope this made sense. I find this side of running harder to explain. And I always miss things off! Essentially, over the years I just took bits I liked out of articles or threads and moulded them into my own routine. You'll see so many different views because alot of the strength/plyo stuff is disputed about, so theres no exact right or wrong. It certainly helps though, in my opinion. And your ability to avoid injury shoots up as long as you slowly work into the exercises.