I DO NOT UNDERSTAND V02 MAX

yes sir... wrote, in part:

"If you are asking if VO2 will increase as speeds increase, then most likely yes...to a point."

I agree! So that point just before where speed increases but VO2 does not increase is called what? Isn't that vVO2 max? Isn't that relating VO2 max to race pace, which you said was "just plain ridiculous"?

Depends if you believe in the vVO2 max? Just because Jack Daniels says it can be maintained for 11 minutes, it doesn't mean he is right. Ask him what the fastest vVO2 max is and see if you get an answer? Because you will find that in distance runners, the so called supra maximal zone goes right up to 800m pace and maybe beyond.

I am not saying in a controlled environment or for any one particular environment there isn't a VVO2 max, it is just that it doesn't have anything to do with race times or performance and in a training environment with a variety or surfaces, humidity, temperature, altitude etc, its silly to think it matters at all.

If you are asking if that silly little machine someone linked a few posts ago would be helpful, i would say no. I can't see how training at x % of your anticipated or measured vo2 max would beat training at x% of MHR.

Not sure I understand your post. I know Billat says it's more like 6 minutes instead of 11 minutes. Other researchers have said if you go long enough at 90% of 11 minute race pace, you will get to VO2 max. But what do you mean that in distance runners, the so called supra maximal zone goes right up to 800m pace and maybe beyond?

VO2 measurements with regard to exercise intensity are not linear, and at paces like 800 that have to be aerobic, the graphs for VO2 start to plateau but don't stop rising. I think this is what he is talking about with the supra maximal zones. Just accept you can't predict VO2 max from race times at any distance.

I would like to see such graphs. The ones I have seen plateau and DO stop rising.

I accept that you can't predict VO2 max from race times at any distance. Otherwise how could Shorter (VO2 max about 71) and Pre (VO2 max about 84) have almost the same 5000 and 10000 times?

They do stop rising, but there is a point where they rise very slowly in relationship to increased intensity.

SlowFatMaster wrote:

I would like to see such graphs. The ones I have seen plateau and DO stop rising.

I accept that you can't predict VO2 max from race times at any distance. Otherwise how could Shorter (VO2 max about 71) and Pre (VO2 max about 84) have almost the same 5000 and 10000 times?

Which is why the 'pseudo-VO2max', VDOT, is a more useful metric when converting across race distances, since its purpose is to account for performance differences that may nonetheless occur between individuals with similar laboratory measured VO2max due to for example, differences in running economy.

Yes Sir, yes sir... that is what I mean. Thank you.

SlowFatMaster wrote:

I would like to see such graphs. The ones I have seen plateau and DO stop rising.

I accept that you can't predict VO2 max from race times at any distance. Otherwise how could Shorter (VO2 max about 71) and Pre (VO2 max about 84) have almost the same 5000 and 10000 times?

Pre was more muscular, and bigger muscles in an endurance athlete require more oxygen. Shorter had better oxygen economy with less muscle relative muslce mass but this is compensated for by more elastic return from the muscles and tendons.

If you look at a typical Conconi curve where beyond the deflection point a rise of heart rate gives exponentially more speed, you can see that in this zone, the athlete is actually becoming more and more efficient (the opposite of what most people think) as the speed increases. The athlete isn't 'going anaerobic' but both aerobic and anaerobic contribution is increasing, and more elasistic energy return is possible.

Oh please no, not VDOT. What possible use is VDOT? It's for runners and coaches who can't think for themselves and need to be told what pace to run, which is the exact opposite of learning how to feel the pace.

Pretty complete discussion of the issues Noakes brings up:

http://faculty.css.edu/tboone2/asep/robergs1col.pdf

The paper is long and involved and I haven't finished it. I don't understand all of it either, but I see where "yes sir..." and "plateau or peak" are coming from. And yes, some graphs where VO2 seems to keep going up and not really plateau!

Thanks for a great thread so far and I hope it continues.

Thanks, I will print that and sudy it.

My interpretation of the word plateau in this discussion is that we can't see the top, but we know we are close, like climbing Table mountain in the mist.

VO2 Max is the runner's mentallity.

Mentallity > Physicallity