wejo wrote: A ton was accomplished.
Most importantly a cheat's titles were taken off the record books.
Fourth, despite Lance's claims, USADA's validity as the anti-doping agency in the US has been reaffirmed.
I fail to see how you conclude this. Eleven admitted cheaters are allowed to complete again.
Other side of the Coin wrote:
wejo wrote: A ton was accomplished.Most importantly a cheat's titles were taken off the record books.
Fourth, despite Lance's claims, USADA's validity as the anti-doping agency in the US has been reaffirmed.
I fail to see how you conclude this. Eleven admitted cheaters are allowed to complete again.
Agreed the U.S. is a laughing stock after this, while the rest of Europe and it's dopers are riding to the bank.
wejo wrote: A ton was accomplished.
Most importantly a cheat's titles were taken off the record books.
Fourth, despite Lance's claims, USADA's validity as the anti-doping agency in the US has been reaffirmed.
Other side of the Coin wrote:
I fail to see how you conclude this. Eleven admitted cheaters are allowed to complete again.
In every instance of admitted cheating, titles were taken off the record books. For example:
Levi Leipheimer's voided results from June 1999 to 30 July 2006.
1st Overall Tour de Beauce
1st Stage 3
2nd Pan American Games Men's Road Race
3rd Sea Otter Classic
2000
1st Stage 2 Circuit Franco-Belge
2001
1st Stage 5 Redlands Bicycle Classic
1st Mountains Classification
1st Stage 1 Sea Otter Classic
2nd Overall Vuelta a Castilla y León
3rd Overall Vuelta a España
2002
1st Overall Route du Sud
1st Stage 3 (ITT)
8th Overall Tour de France
2003
8th Overall Critérium du Dauphiné
2004
1st Stage 4 Setmana Catalana
9th Overall Tour de France
2005
1st Overall Jersey gold.svg Deutschland Tour
1st Jersey polkadot King of the Mountains classification
1st Stage 4
2nd Overall Tour de Georgia
3rd Overall Dauphiné Libéré
6th Overall Tour de France
2006
1st Overall Jersey yellow-bluebar.svg Dauphiné Libéré
2nd Overall Deutschland Tour
1st Stage 5
6th Overall Tour of California
1st Prologue
1st Jersey orange King of the Mountains
12th Overall Tour de France
Jersey red Combativity award Stage 18
In reality, we are looking at wiping out a generation of races in cycling if an equal magnitude investigation is done for many of the other riders/teams. We have heard many times that 20/21 podium finishers during the Armstrong era were dopers.
Many feel that the problem is endemic to track as well.
US Postal is bearing the punishment for the entire Peleton. Except the French, I truly believe they are clean.
With only Hamilton and Landis on the other side, why did the rest of the team come forward. Is this an exercise in Game Theory?
Yeah France wrote:
In reality, we are looking at wiping out a generation of races in cycling if an equal magnitude investigation is done for many of the other riders/teams. We have heard many times that 20/21 podium finishers during the Armstrong era were dopers.
Many feel that the problem is endemic to track as well.
US Postal is bearing the punishment for the entire Peleton. Except the French, I truly believe they are clean.
With only Hamilton and Landis on the other side, why did the rest of the team come forward. Is this an exercise in Game Theory?
Velonews (and NYT) had an article about how it broke - beginning with Landis.
The way NYT describes it, Vaughters valiantly came forward on his own - after Landis first spilled the beans. Vaughters is typically self-serving. I wish he'd also just go away. Makes me wonder if Hesjedal himself was clean? (a career in Disco and then with Phonak during the bad Hamilton/Landis era taints anyone connected with either team)
Why does this surprise anyone? When you get caught cheating, you are temporarily sanctioned, then you are allowed to compete again.Barring aggravating circumstances, cheaters are normally given a second chance.All of these confessed cheaters had any performances stripped, during the confessed period. The active ones are serving a temporary ban (adjusted in accordance with the WADA code). Four of them even voluntarily withdrew themselves from competing in the Olympics.They have been lightly punished, but punished just the same, in accordance with existing rules.
Other side of the Coin wrote:
I fail to see how you conclude this. Eleven admitted cheaters are allowed to complete again.
I think McQuaid has a valid point in his statement. The UCI, and WADA, and USADA, etc. are often powerless to compel action. Landis was the catalyst, but if it weren't for the federal investigation, post-Marion Jones, it's not clear to me that these riders would have come forward for USADA alone.
Keep in mind that the Festina scandal was the result of a French police investigation.
The Operation Puerto was a Spanish Civil Guard investigation (initially unrelated to cycling).
Likewise, I think the US Federal investigation played a significant role in many of these witnesses coming forward.
I'm sorry. I thought you were trying to demonize "plea-bargaining". But it seems now, in a "whack-a-mole" fashion, when confronted with my assertion that it "plea-bargaining" is actually beneficial and often necessary to ensure justice, you criticize arbitration, as a system not based on justice, as if that was what you really meant to say in the first place.Shall I assume now that you are OK with plea-bargaining, as a way to ensure at least partial justice when the alternative is no justice, but your real complaint all along is that arbitration isn't justice based?Putting aside that "plea-bargaining" is also a term not applicable in arbitration contexts, I guess you think that you are criticizing USADA (and Tygart), but in fact, arbitration is managed by independent non-profit associations like the AAA and ICDR. I'm not aware of any "pre-Lance" criticisms that suggest these professional, non-profit, dispute resolution organizations do not ensure resolutions based on justice. What do you suggest the arbitration system is based on? Can you enlighten me as to who has complained before about arbitration being unjust in general, or unjust specifically to athletes?Arbitration is long recognized by the courts as a preferred way to settle disputes. Courts, such as the Federal District court in Texas, will defer jurisdiction to arbitration, if the parties have previously agreed to use arbitration to settle disputes.
Travis Tor Tygart wrote:The USADA uses arbitration. It is not a justice based system.
rekrunner wrote: Plea-bargaining is a fundamental and essential part of justice.
more like drugsmule
he took the glory take the crap
Lemond wasn't part of any USADA investigation.While I appreciate the right to anonymously give unfounded opinions, has anyone with a name ever suspected Lemond of doping? Any cyclist? Any investigative journalist?
Lance-alot wrote:
Lance is not the only one who denies it. Look at Lemond.
wejo wrote:
what does it matter wrote:Um, ever heard of Barry Bonds?
Millions and millions of dollars and resources wasted to accomplish NOTHING.
A ton was accomplished.
Were all of Barry Bonds' teams wins during his doping era turned into loses?
zzzz wrote:
wejo wrote:A ton was accomplished.
Were all of Barry Bonds' teams wins during his doping era turned into loses?
They should be. If MLB teams lost titles won with dopers, there'd be a heck of a lot fewer dopers than there are now.
Link wrote:
zzzz wrote:Were all of Barry Bonds' teams wins during his doping era turned into loses?
I considered this but I think the MLB players union is too strong to have meaningful anti doping policy.
They should be. If MLB teams lost titles won with dopers, there'd be a heck of a lot fewer dopers than there are now.
Can Lance now appeal the USADA in arbitration? What happens to LA if Burnyeel wins in arbitration?
Ivan B wrote:
Can Lance now appeal the USADA in arbitration? What happens to LA if Burnyeel wins in arbitration?
No, Lance gave up right of appeal when he chose not to contest the hearing.
I don't think Bruyneel's case has any bearing on Lance's case.
clifford diffley wrote:
Velonews (and NYT) had an article about how it broke - beginning with Landis.
The way NYT describes it, Vaughters valiantly came forward on his own - after Landis first spilled the beans. Vaughters is typically self-serving. I wish he'd also just go away. Makes me wonder if Hesjedal himself was clean? (a career in Disco and then with Phonak during the bad Hamilton/Landis era taints anyone connected with either team)
Yup. It all started with Landis. You'd think if Lance just didn't have to be such a jerk, and so vindictive, he wouldn't be in this position. Let Landis ride in the ToC and it's possible none of this happens. Landis doesnt go off on the hypocrisy of it all. But Lance had to win always. Similar to Tiger, as if he had given his girls more than a Subway sandwhich, they wouldnt have needed to talk. These athletes and their hubris. What makes them great, brings them down in the end.
Having said that, Lance is being used as a scapegoat. Lance saved cycling after Festina in 98. He pushed the story but it was fantastic for everyone involved. And everyone involved knew what was up. So for them to be applauded now for dropping him, for speaking out against him, I have no respect for that. Everyone with a brain should have known no later than when BALCO came out that this stuff wasn't clean, and even if it was that late, you weren't thinking that critically about things.
Why should Lance get blasted on this site yet Hincapie, Levi, Vande Velde, etc get a free ride. 6 months? Yes they admitted to it--not willingly but under legal pressure--but they didnt have to lose what Lance did. It is so easy to say that he should just come clean from our positions, from Hincapie's position. Hincapie has a clothing line. Lance is a brand. Lot of armchair quarterbacking going on here, though that seems par for the course. Easy to say what we all wouldnt have done when none of us were in the position to either get with the program or give up our dreams (for which we most likely sacrificed our educations). And for people to act like Lance changed Postal and forced "young talented riders" to dope, that is baloney. Same think would have happened at T-Mobile or at CSC. Lance wore the crown but everyone in the kingdom was doing the same thing.
And Vaughters is such a self-serving tool. How many dirty riders are associated with his self-pronounced "clean team?" The last thing that will make me believe a team or a rider is clean is them saying they are signing a pledge or submitting to "self-monitoring..."
spokanexc wrote:
Lance saved cycling after Festina in 98.
Not even vaguely true.