Just trying to bump this up a bit where some people will see it.
Just trying to bump this up a bit where some people will see it.
Any suggestions to combat overtraining? I've read the other threads...
Get a lot of sleep (it never feels like enough, though)
Eat well (I do)
Should I stop running again completely for another month (or two, or three?)
What exactly is happening to my body caused by overtraining? Did I physically do damage to muscle fibers in there? Any way to figure that out? Specific kinds of doctors to go for who deal with this kind of thing?
Again symptoms include:
Never feel fully rested, always tired - can't get out of bed in the morning - feels daunting to start the day or go out and run easy
Apathetic, no motivation - simple tasks and work feels challenging
Higher resting HR than normal, even upon waking
Feeling anxious a lot of the time (better than it was before)
I initially put on a bunch of weight (have since lost it)
I feel hungry all the time, more than I did when I was training at full volume
When running, pain and tightness/fatigue in legs from calves, shins up through quads and hips...just nothing there.
Going on 10 months of dealing with this...
Where do you live? Have you had your titers, early and late, done for EBV, HHV6, and CMG, along with an ESR test yet? A tilt table? I would also get maybe an immune panel done looking at T-cell and NK cell counts. Maybe look at IL-8. ESR is almost universally low in ME, and IL-8 is almost universally high, part of a chronic inflammatory condition. Just stuff to rule out.
Just a disclaimer, I know nothing about these things, but if you're asking about overtraining... I just finished reading Duel in the Sun, and Alberto Salazer had a terrible case that plagued him for YEARS. You should look into it. But what really helped him get out of it was Prozac. So maybe look into that...
I had a similar issue to yours a few years back. My training was going awesome for several months and was running really well. I started getting selfish with my running...I was running too hard in my workouts and was not eating the required calories to compensate. This resulted in a rather quick decline in my running performance. I honestly would run for 30 minutes at 8 min/mile pace or slower and I would be struggling. My legs would hurt all the time; tightness that would last even after my runs while I would walk around. Difficulty sleeping; tired walking up stairs; chronic tightness in my legs; went from college level runner to feeling like a hobby jogger essentially. I believe it was a bad bout of overtraining syndrome. I tried running for 1-2 months and realized that was not helping. I took 1-2 months off with little or no running. I ran XC in the fall and really struggled for for a month of training. Finally, it seemed like I was coming out of it at times and then would lapse back into tiredness. I think I would go out and run harder than normal just to test if I was getting better. This did not help and made me struggle mentally with running. I look back now and wonder if I made the issue worse by chronically thinking about what was wrong with me. Spring track came around and I performed average. Seemed like there were some issues but again could possibly be mental. After spring track I was done with running in college, took some time off and began training again. Everything seemed ok post collegiate running but never raced. I did do some workouts I could never do in college like 4Xmile in 4:50 with 90 sec recovery at altitude. So this was something I thought was an issue for about a year.
My recommendation if you really think it is overtraining syndrome: If it were ME and could go back...I would lift weights 4-5 times a week doing heavy weights/low rep and avoid all running for 2-3 months. Eat/sleep and forget all about running. I would then continue lifting the weights and incorporate some easy runs. DO NOT go out and do speed work and compare how you feel to when you were in great shape. Do not go out and run 6:30 pace and then when you feel like crap mind f%ck yourself. I would do 30-40 min easy. I would do something like this a couple times a week for a month. Avoid all speedwork. You could incorporate some strides at the end of your runs. I would slowly increase from running 2-4 times a week to 3-5 and then 4-6. All runs being for 30-40 minutes at a slow pace. The reason I would do this is to slowly build your confidence back up. REPEAT..do not go out and test your ability to run fast. During all of this continue to lift weights, dont make it a cardio workout just lift weights. You might get big and gain weight but I do not think this matters. After 2-3 months of building your runs up from 2-3 times a week to 4-6 running 30-40 minutes then this is the time to reevaluate. I would think at this point you could resume regular running training...but be careful. Eat properly, meaning enough calories and quality foods. Do not jump into heavy training. Build up...do more strides...do some wannabe speed workouts. This probably sounds like rambling, but I have been there and know what you might be going through. I know it would be great to take some test and it come back that there is something wrong but that might never happen.
Lost 6 months to the exact symptoms you are presenting with. When I say "lost 6 months" I knew there was something wrong, but continued training for the six months, hopeing that the next run would be better. Well it never was.
I took 2 months off and luckily for me, easing back into training gradutally is working out, as long as I keep in mind the following:
I now know that for me, a lot of intensity in training is not what I respond too and whenever I do too much intensity with not enough recovery time to compensate, I feel the effects coming back, mainly the heavy tight legs. Example of this is doing multiple workouts during the week where I push myself out of my comfort zone.
I am pretty sure that once you overtrain, it is easier to re-overtrain thus I am very careful with how much intensity I put into my training weeks so that I can avoid a relapse if you will.
I am now learning the value of recovery and am doing a much better job in trusting in my training. Improving is all about stress, and then the body's ability to adapt to that stress. Personally, I need more recovery than a lot of other runners I know, and now that I have figured this out, I am progressing nicely.
As for your own situation, I hope you figure this out and I wish you luck. Depending on how big the hole is you have dug will depend on how long it takes you to get out of it. Dont give up!
Sorry:
I meant 6 weeks not 6 months. After 6 weeks, I knew that I was in over my head and pulled the plug. Sounds like you kept running for a few more months than I did.
Also, I had blood work done that came back better than normal, even for a runner thus, ruling out any form of blood related issue.
SaveMeLetsRun wrote:
Eat well (I do)
Again symptoms include:
Never feel fully rested, always tired - can't get out of bed in the morning - feels daunting to start the day or go out and run easy
Apathetic, no motivation - simple tasks and work feels challenging
Higher resting HR than normal, even upon waking
Feeling anxious a lot of the time (better than it was before)
I initially put on a bunch of weight (have since lost it)
I feel hungry all the time, more than I did when I was training at full volume
When running, pain and tightness/fatigue in legs from calves, shins up through quads and hips...just nothing there.
Going on 10 months of dealing with this...
Might be a good time to try seeing a nutritionist/dietician who specializes in athletes. There is a difference in eating well (no junk food, "healthy" food) and eating what you really need to perform. Some NFL players have to eat a meal of pretzels and salted ham before a game to keep them from cramping up when they play. Novak Djokovic used to have breathing problems and fatigue during long, hot matches and turned things around in a big way by cutting out glutten. I have known runners who saw a big difference in aiding recovery just by balancing the acidity in their diets. Some people can eat whatever they want and perform at a high level. Others have big problems if they do not get just the right diet.
Last, but not least, might try talking with a sports psychologist. I knew a guy who used to have major crash and burn episodes during a big build up during racing season. Just when things would start to come together, he would get fatigued and completely fall off his training plan. Turned out it was just a bunch of unresolved personal and family issues that would cause him to stop himself from succeeding in his running. At the very least, a sports psychologist can help you deal with the stress of losing fitness and being plagued by an unknown chronic condition.
Has your b-12 level been checked at any time? It's another marker you may wish to have looked at. Some people have genetic blocks on absorption for this; pernicious anemia can lead to fatigue also.
It's worth a check if you haven't already.
North coast wrote:
Has your b-12 level been checked at any time? It's another marker you may wish to have looked at. Some people have genetic blocks on absorption for this; pernicious anemia can lead to fatigue also.
It's worth a check if you haven't already.
Except he's not anemic, so this is completely pointless.
Not true, my friend. My son went through this - RBC levels normal, ferritin levels normal, B-12 levels... Non-existent. Turns out it was an AB block. Initial symptoms - like our original poster - were fatigue, times that had dramatically fallen off, and an initially low ferritin level. The ferritin quickly responded to supplements (returning to normal within weeks); The B-12 didn't, and never has, in spite of some pretty aggressive injection dosages. B-12 and iron are usually - but not always - connected, and our poster might be one of those individuals where his genetics might also be creating his difficulties.
If genetics were to blame here, then he would've seen these issues right away, instead of after months of consistent uninterrupted training.
Yes, these issues kind of came out of nowhere. I was pretty used to training at a high level. Our training philosophy didn't stress super hard workouts, but rather a consistent build over years in the program, and it was working well for me, but I ended up pushing easy days and recovery days too hard and just doing stupid things in training. Similar to another poster, I cannot handle high intensity without breaking down eventually, and while our workouts weren't killer by any means, looking back, I was rarely giving myself a break and a chance to recover. At the time, I felt great and it didn't seem out of the ordinary though.
Thanks for all suggestions, I appreciate it greatly.
RE the nutritionalist and sport psychology, I again appreciate it, but I don't think these are the roots of my problems. I eat what I need to perform and always have and nothing changed in the time when this began. And I have nothing to be depressed about or anything else to worry over psychologically. I love my life, except the fact that this is a frustrating time. What I mean is that there was nothing in this realm going on that would have caused this. As I think I stated before, there were some relationship stresses in my life in late Feb/March that I now notice were keeping me up at night and making me anxious, which likely aided in the whole not sleeping/not recovering process, but I believe the damage had been done before this.
RE B12 - I have not been checked for this, but that could be worth a shot perhaps. I am not anemic (my ferritin was a little low, but nothing to point to 10 months of this. Plus I am on and have been on a ferritin/iron supp for most of my college years).
Don't think its any genetic issue as the above poster said I would have noticed something long before this.
I really do think it was some kind of serious overtraining that messed me up big time. And it was not just some kind of mental thing, I was physically in a seriously bad place. All through March/Apr/June/July/Aug it was a serious struggle to get out of bed, off the couch etc. to do even menial tasks. Everything hurt, all day every day. Yes I was emotionally burnt out, and still feel that way (somewhat better now). It's weird, I feel dumber in a way, like I'm just not all there and slow to react and understand sometimes.
I don't know, I'm rambling now.
Thanks people.
Just to chime in with my experience, I also was debilitated by overtraining for over a year.
Sophomore year of college I lost about 10 pounds from increasing my training volume, while simultaneously growing an inch or two. Over the course of the year, I dropped to as low as 108 pounds at 5' 9". My performances gradually began to crash as the year wore on. By the end of outdoor track, despite putting weight back on, I was severely fatigued throughout all of my training runs and daily activities. I'd liken the fatigue to brain fog, never feeling fully alert despite ample sleep and nutrition. I had no libido and began to feel very situationally depressed. I got blood tests, which revealed low testosterone levels and anemia. I began to train again that summer after testosterone and iron supplementation. Although my blood levels returned to normal, I still felt completely fatigued every day, all the time. Some days I was essentially bed-ridden. In August, I took two weeks off and began to build again. Despite the rest, upon returning I felt not better than I had before. Finally, at the end of October, after nearly 9 months of severe fatigue and subsequent depression, I decided to take two months completely off. I began "running" again on New Years Day, feeling slightly improved but still generally fatigued and miserable. Over the course of the next six months I GRADUALLY returned to running regularly. Throughout January I ran twice per week, one mile during each bout. By the end of May, I had gotten up to 10-15 miles per WEEK. Throughout this time, I gradually felt better and better, but still well below where I wanted to be. In June, I felt decent enough to push myself a little more and increased my miles throughout the summer enough that by September I was running 60-70 miles per week and racing, albeit racing severely out of shape. I'd still have days of terrible fatigue, brain fog, and depression, but they were less frequent. From my senior year xc season in 2010 til now, I have noticed improvements each week. Today, I feel 100% healthy, but it has been a VERY long process. 2 to 3 years. It took me til the summer of 2011 to consider myself "healthy".
There were many times when I doubted I would every feel normal again. I was nearly suicidal at times. I researched every possible cause of my malaise, from MS to CFS to Lyme. In the end, it turned out to be severe overtraining, as you likely have. Overtraining is a very real yet poorly understood illness. Just have faith that you will get better. A positive outlook can go a long way in your recovery.
Two things I recommend:
1) Take at least two months completely off from running. When you think you are ready to start jogging again, take another week off, then start up. Build back slowly into training for the next six months. You need to give yourself a chance to recover. 9 months off now is worth it in the long term.
2) Buy a calendar and keep track of how you feel every day so you can monitor your progress. I used a check minus-minus, check minus, check, check plus, check plus-plus system. Do whatever works for you.
Hang in there; life will get better.
Physician and Sportsmedicine, the journal has a couple of review articles on overtraining syndrome that are worth reading. Here is one of them. You can get it free at a university IP address.
Overtraining Syndrome
A Guide to Diagnosis, Treatment, and Prevention
Christopher J. Hawley, MD; Robert B. Schoene, MD
Abstract: Overtraining syndrome is a common cause of underperformance in athletes. Symptoms such as persistent fatigue, muscle soreness, reduced coordination, weight loss, mood changes, and frequent illness may accompany performance decrements, but they may also be signs of underlying medical conditions. Reliable and practical diagnostic laboratory tests for overtraining have not yet been identified. Clinicians can prescribe relative or complete rest and strive to identify and correct the training, nutritional, and psychosocial factors that contributed to the athlete's condition.
Here is another informative article on overtraining. Yes, i know slowtwitch is not revered on this site but this isn't from the forum.
http://www.slowtwitch.com/mainheadings/coachcorn/overtraining.html
I really think if you think you have overtraining syndrome I would again recommend quit running for a few months and start weight training. Some runners avoid weight training and therefore do not get any benefits from it. Just try it, go to the gym at your school and do weights for an hour.
Contact Dr. Philip Maffetone via his website.
HAHA i read some of the web page. My heart was tired...I could not reach 65% to 70% of my max heart rate without struggling.
North coast wrote:
Not true, my friend. My son went through this - RBC levels normal, ferritin levels normal, B-12 levels... Non-existent. Turns out it was an AB block. Initial symptoms - like our original poster - were fatigue, times that had dramatically fallen off, and an initially low ferritin level. The ferritin quickly responded to supplements (returning to normal within weeks); The B-12 didn't, and never has, in spite of some pretty aggressive injection dosages. B-12 and iron are usually - but not always - connected, and our poster might be one of those individuals where his genetics might also be creating his difficulties.
No. The primary reason that a supposed B12 deficiency would lead to fatigue is through anemia. FYI, no one uses "RBC levels", people use hemoglobin/hematocrit.
The "bad" thing about having low B12 is that it leads to a low hemoglobin/hematocrit and reduces the body's ability to transport oxygen to cells in the body . . . hence, the fatigue.
You can hem and haw all you want, but if the H/H is normal, B12 is almost certainly not the culprit.
And B12 and iron stores are not very related at all.
Thanks for sharing, Kang6789 - your story sounds VERY SIMILAR to what I have been going through. I can specifically relate to brain fog, mood swings, mild depression, anxiety, and of course the fatigue.
I'm starting with more time off today - at least two months (longer if necessary) and seeing how I feel after that. It's a hard pill to swallow, but I know that if I can give up running again now, it can only help in the long run. I want to be able to run and enjoy it for the rest of my life, and if this is what it takes, I'm willing to do it, because I can't keep feeling like this the rest of my life.
It's like I've slowly gotten better over the months and I'm like 70% of feeling normal, but thats last 30% is pretty darn critical, and I have not been improving over the past few months from this present state.
My plan is to:
-Take more time off
-Stretch/yoga everyday (relaxes me)
-Do what I can to get at least 9 hours of sleep each night
-Forget about running and focus on other things I enjoy
I like the idea of the check + check - system that was mentioned to keep track of how I'm feeling, I will definitely do that.
Here's to not giving up. I will keep you updated as to how I progress.