How can elites run 26.2 miles at well under 5 pace and I struggle to run one at that?

Donald Trump wrote:

How "old" was the old lady? How "fat" was the fat guy? If old lady was 50-plus, running a 37:xx would make her probably top 5 in the world. If fat guy was short and 250-plus, running a 37:xx would make him top 5 in the world as well.

Jacking aaas - where are you? Looks like Trump has effectively called you out on your BS story and you have gone into hiding. Come out and concede. You really meant you ran a 48, right?

Oh calm down for crissakes. The guy might be exaggerating a bit, but seriously relax, his story is possible. You are such a dimwit. A big guy who yes, had done some pushups here and there (very off and on maybe), and maybe a little other activity, certainly might bench 245 if he was very naturally talented. What, do you think guys that get up to benching 600lbs all start off only benching 135 on their first tries??

He didn't say the guy was 100% sedentary. "never exercised in his life" was an exaggeration I am sure, but overall, the story is not unbelievable.

It doesn't need to be "pure hyperbole", just a bit of hyperbole. There are 60+ year old men that can run 38 for 10k, CERTAINLY. You don't call that "old"? And he probably thinks over 50 is "old." , in which case LOTS of over 50 guys can run that. Don't you call yourself a geezer?? HOw old are you?

And some women with a little pudge on them can run 38. Again, "fat" is relative (compared to your typical runner), but he was making a point.

Of ALL the people calling out someone for bragging or being full of shit? Aren't you the one coming on here saying you could be age group WR holder in the 100 if you cared a little more and maybe took some PED's? Aren't you the one telling us about your 1000lb leg press? And your sub 5 min mile even though you are a sprinter? And on and on and on about your intelligence and everything else?

Even if this guy's post is not true, minus a few exaggerations ( his friend "never exercised" and the woman in the 10k was "fat"), it is completely supposable, and I am sure the different elements have occurred.

His story is the key answer to the OP's question: talent trumps everything else. Some talents need to be developed but how one responds to training stimulus is the most important "talent" of all, and is still an inherent ability.

Rex--

lol at your response, that whole post was a troll!

As for me,

1000lb leg press--done after YEARS of training for it, and not really remarkable when apparently the big guys do twice as much.

age group WR--very few formerly elite athletes care at all about age group performances, and the fact that I acknowledge that I'd need PED's to get there tells you all you need to know about how good I think I am.

sub-5 mile--done after many months of training, daily, and after a sudden weight loss due to the flu; was in great shape otherwise

All these things are products of training, dedication, and hard work, sometimes for decades.

MORE THAN ONCE, I HAVE TAKEN BIG GUYS INTO THE GYM WHO HAVE NEVER EXERCISED A DAY IN THEIR LIFE. I know exactly what they are capable of. After a couple of go-arounds, they can be pretty good--but not the first time out. Weight movements can be very specific.

I, too, am amazed by marathon runners, but only because relative to them, I suck at distance. I would suggest that the OP find something they are good at--clearly it's not distance running.

Um, a 38 minutes 10K is not blazing fast, but I find it hard to believe that a "fat guy" and an "old lady" beat 38 minutes.I don't see too many fat guys running a 18:30 5K equivalent and 18:30 is a very good HS varsity time for a girl.In my city (one of the largest universities in the nation), there are only a few girls that can beat that time; several girls on the university team can't beat it!

Wow. What an honor to be "called out" on Let's Run! There is a certain level of elevated status in that. The fat guy's name is Jake Courtney. The old lady is Alison Atkinson. Both of them are pretty old. Probably 45+ which would be more than 10 years older than me. The next 10k race I did which also had Alison in it I put about 5 minutes on her. The point is not made for bragging it is all to illustrate the generic element in this game. These people work hard. They run every day. Their ears ring cause they hit it so hard at te track. I put in maybe 4 days a week and at the track I honestly am not putting out an effort. Just out there to work on pacing. Yet, I at it for a relatively short time and running the best times in my club. Genetics my friend. That's how they do it. Why is this so hard for people to accept?

2012xxx wrote:

Donald Trump wrote:

How "old" was the old lady? How "fat" was the fat guy? If old lady was 50-plus, running a 37:xx would make her probably top 5 in the world. If fat guy was short and 250-plus, running a 37:xx would make him top 5 in the world as well.

Jacking aaas - where are you? Looks like Trump has effectively called you out on your BS story and you have gone into hiding. Come out and concede. You really meant you ran a 48, right?

As somebody pointed out - there's a huge difference between elite and average. Running just illustrates it in tangible terms better than most other endeavors. Or as John L Parker said:

"We are speaking of human endeavor and delusional systems. Everyone likes to think they have their own little corner, it can be anything; needlepoint, lawn bowling, whatever. Some guy may gratify himself by thinking he's the best goddamned fruit and vegetable manager the A&P every had, which is fine. It gives people a sense of worth in a crowded world where everyone feels like part of the scenery. But then mostly they are spared of any harrowing glimpses into their own mediocrity, Pillsbury Bake-Off notwithstanding, we'll never reall know who makes the best artichoke souffle in the world, will we? Thing is, we are sometimes painfully and constantly aware of how we stack up. Lots of people can't take that kind of pressure, the ego withers in the face of evidence."

jacking--

lol, keep it coming!

Who was your friend who had "never exercised a day in his life", yet "pressed 245 easily the first time he ever touched a barbell"?

I especially loved the "easily" part!

A 5 min mile ability is not in the middle of the bell curve. It's closer to 2 st dev. But it pales in comparison to sub 5 min pace marathon ability! that's more like 5 st dev.

Jacking's point "The generic (sic) element in this game" is a big part of the answer to this thread topic, generic being genetic i assume. You can't run a marathon at 5m mile pace on just hard work, but nor can you run it on just genetics. You need both genetics and many years of hard+effective training, good nutrition, resistance to injury/disease and adequate rest.

As for Jacking's abilities - completely plausible, because sorry, it's really not that special. Long term runners may remember their early days when improvements on just 3-4 days/week were huge, plateaus occur soon enough. And as far as the thread topic goes, 5 min miles, Jacking's abilities fall far short, he's not even close to running 5m miles for 10k. There are far better examples of gifted runners, such as Roger Bannister as a teenager running a 4:28 mile (on cinders!) training only *once* per week. Or Sammy Wanjiru running a 10k in 28:36 at age 15, that's 4:36/mile.

This is besides the point, but wrt Alison and Jake, Alison is 45, not what i would call "pretty old", i'd put "pretty old" at 60+. Jake's photo doesn't look that fat to me, but if "pretty old"=45, then i suppose that makes sense. I admit, Jackings description does make for a better story, i was amused! btw - Alison running sub 38 at age 45 is fantastic, not worldclass (WR 32:34 10,000m), but ranks about 35th.

The weight lifter dude's name is Samir Saab. He is originally from Libya and prior to coming to America for college spent his entire teenihood smoking and drinking and did absolutely nothing healthy. Heck he even told me that it was not looked down upon to even drink and drive back there. Said at first America was a big cramp of his style. Have since lost touch after graduating and moving to SoCal but last we spoke he was working out with 550 bench. Yes, working out, not maxing out. Oh, and I think I did a typo. His first time in the gym was 225 not 245 (two 45 plates on each end) but that does not change what I was trying to illustrate.

Sprintgeezer wrote:

jacking--

lol, keep it coming!

Who was your friend who had "never exercised a day in his life", yet "pressed 245 easily the first time he ever touched a barbell"?

I especially loved the "easily" part!

Puttemans ran sub 4 and sub 2;10 before anyone else did.

Congrat's Jacking. Far and away this is the best hijacking of a thread I have ever seen on this board.

Also, I must commend you on a most masterfully crafted plan.

To the Letsrunners I share with you that Alison Atkinson is Jeff Atkinson's wife. Jeff being one of our Olympic miler's.

Jacking's story is legit. Jake is fat. He will be the first one to admit it and brag about it. And yes, he can pull off sub 38 any day. Alison will get a laugh about the being "old" part but let's face it. In sports 45 is old. And Jacking can go sub 16 with fake training and being a newbie.

So, I am guessing Jacking's whole motive and plot is an anniversary present for Alison and Jeff who celebrate 17 years of marriage this week. Wow, they have a thread about them that made "What's hot" on Let's run. Genius.

One Word: GENETICS

how is it possible? wrote:

5 minutes for one mile feels so fast for me. I don't understand how another human can run 26 miles, with ease, at that pace. How can they possible be THAT much more talented? As humans, we are not yet thaaat evolved to start seeing such huge difference based on region and race.

Talent.

Try and remember that less than .001% of the running population can compete at this level. They are extremely talented and train a lot (120 - 140 mpw). Also, they're only good for around 2 marathons per year at that level.

Well played, Jacking!

Not only was he Libyan, he did nothing but smoke and drink before going to the gym with you! The character you have invented is a little bit formulaic, though, don't you think?

Excellent of you to "modify" your story, though. For me personally, given a normally fit individual with huge natural strength, 225 is within the realm of possibility, but not 245. Why? Because I have taken plenty of big guys to the gym who have never worked out a day in their life, and the best I have ever seen did 225.

However, it was not done "easily", as you suggest in your hypo.

Your suggestion that your character "works out" with 550 is a good one, too. You know that people can "work out" at their max, right? I myself have done many 1-rep max sets, FYI.

So, we now have a character from an obscure part of the world where there are no records, and which is famed for not only unhealthy youth lifestyles, but for having an abiding interest in physical strength. You try to build credibility in the mind of the reader through the association, but it would have been even better had you picked Turkey or Bulgaria. The claim for this character has gone down from 245 to 225, nearly 10%. The character is claimed to now be doing weights that would put him among the best, yet there is no easily accessible verification thereof. And the best part, he still did it "easily" the "first time" after having done nothing but "smoke and drink" for his youth.

If you want to keep it at 225, scrap the "easily", tell me the guy was 18 yrs or above, tell me that he was huge with big ham hands, and tell me that he in fact did something other than just smoke and drink, I would be willing to come on board. We can even forget his name. But, you especially need to scrap the "easily" part.

Like I said, I personally have seen this scenario. With struggle and horrible form, having done something other than just smoke and drink, from a guy who was absolutely huge--6'1", 285 lbs, naturally. Again, with struggle, the first time. After about 4 workouts, he had an easier time of it. After about 10 workouts, he was repping with 2.5 plates, and after about 2 months he was at a confident 3 plates, rather alarmingly "easily".

Well played, Jacking. I still especially love the "easily" part, very good!

I can't comment on the weightlifter dude but can confirm Jackings story about being beat by an old lady and fat guy in 38 flat. I can also confirm that Jacking is a talented runner who will likely go under 15 as a club runner who does not put in close to 100pct. The old lady and fat guy are very popular runners in my club in Southern California.Jacking. I'd really like some confirmation on the weightlifter dude. Fascinating!

Sprintgeezer wrote:

So, we now have a character from an obscure part of the world where there are no records, and which is famed for not only unhealthy youth lifestyles, but for having an abiding interest in physical strength. You try to build credibility in the mind of the reader through the association, but it would have been even better had you picked Turkey or Bulgaria. The claim for this character has gone down from 245 to 225, nearly 10%. The character is claimed to now be doing weights that would put him among the best, yet there is no easily accessible verification thereof. And the best part, he still did it "easily" the "first time" after having done nothing but "smoke and drink" for his youth.

Well played, Jacking. I still especially love the "easily" part, very good!

Hawkeye wrote:

Puttemans ran sub 4 and sub 2;10 before anyone else did.

No he didn't. No record of EP running any marathon or any sub-2:10 marathons. Superb runner but you got the facts mixed up.

I believe Jackings BP story, at least as ballpark numbers. BP WR is over 715lbs natural, 1070lbs with benching shirt. Libyans smoke like chimneys but smoking and drinking as a teen is not really going to affect your one rep BP. My experience with 225 vs 245 is similar, some sort of limit at 225 for athletes, must be why NFL combine uses 225 as their benchmark. Quick improvement after a few workouts is true, you don't even need more muscle mass, just a matter of coordinating your muscle fibers to fire in unison

I don't think the Libyan is running 5m miles for 26.2 anytime soon. So maybe this should move to another thread, it's not really relevant here. Guess i'm not helping with that!