The big three.. Kinda (Webb, Ritz, Hall)

Bin Der Dun Dat wrote:

Great runners, but no WC or Olympic medals from any of them, nor the likelyhood of ever getting one.

Webb, by far, had the most potential.

Because none of them never hit the podium, like Saladbar, they can never be considered one of the all time US greats.

Reading comprehension isn't your strong point, is it?

Currently

1) Webb. What he did for the sport is more than Ritz or Hall have done so far. Of my non-running friends, almost all of them have heard of Alan Webb. His HS mile made running 'cool' for lack of a better term and jump started running in the US again. Us stupid Americans identify with the mile run. He set the AR in the mile which makes me more appealing to those who don't follow the sport closely. When he was on, he could beat most anyone (especially Lagat). When he was racing in big races I actually thought he had a chance at winning. Hall puts himself in there with major marathons but in the back of my head I'm always thinking "the Kenyans will pull away any minute now".

2) Ritz. His HM bronze, although a weird event, is obviously what we're looking for, international success. His 12:56 was also a flash of his brilliance and showed we could compete with the Africans in the 5k and 10k. Also, a highschool stud.

3) Hall. He's so damn consistent in the marathon that it's hard to put him third but for now it seems appropriate. No major wins at any distance. His two marathon times and HM time are great though.

Future

1) Hall. Due to the nature of the marathon he will likely be competing at a high level until the next Olympics and possibly beyond. I'm predicting an AR in the Marathon and/or and major marathon win which would give him the #1 in my book. This Olympics will be sure be interesting to see how he mixes it up with the top guys in the world (if at all).

2) Ritz. I'm not sure if his best days are behind him or in front of him but I'm leaning towards the latter. If he can pop off a sub 27 10k and a sub 2:08 marathon in the next few years that would be great. Unfortunately I don't see him getting a win in anything important or medaling in anything significant.

3) Webb. What he did for the sport was great but when it's all said and done he will be viewed as kind of a one hit wonder. "07-Webb was an animal". In the 1500/mile his best days are behind him. That said, he'll probably move up to the 5k but it's going to take 12:55 shape or better to make the WC team next year with guys like Lagat, Rupp, Sol, etc. I don't see Webb being able hit that level in the next year. I hope I'm wrong but at the moment he seems to be on a serious decline and it's going to be very difficult to get back on track.

Based on Championships I give it to Ritz

Based on everyone in track and field knows him Webb

Based on every runner magazine in the world knows him Hall

But there has to be a * by Halls popularity this year largely due to the fact he picked up a sponsorship from AT&T, meaning he can appear in commercials during Olympics because they are an official sponsor and the others do not have that.

All time ranking in their best performances in their best events.

Webb (1500-31st, Mile-8th

Hall (Half-47th, Marathon- 51th)

Ritz (5000-56th, 85th)

Webb's AR impresses me most of the 3 ARs. He had great range and beat Ritz in his specialty at Stanford, but the fact that he never learned how to race disturbs me and puts him 3rd.

Hall has had ups and downs but still has good opportunites in '12, '13, '15, '16 to medal.

Ritz's AR was the weakest, his OG performances are DNF/OK, and I don't expect him in the top 12 in London. I enjoyed his '09 season but his 1/2 doesn't really count as a competitive WC medal in my mind.

Hall

Ritz

Webb

To me this is like rock, paper, scissors.

If you change the criteria slightly you get a different result, so you could argue any possible ranking. What makes it harder is that it turned out that their best distances aren't quite the same with Webb at his best around 1500/mile, Ritz at 5000/10000, and Hall at half marathon/marathon. To me that makes it so close that I'll say it's a tie.

It just makes me realize how great the 2000 Footlocker race was, however.

a correction wrote:

Learning to Run wrote:

Alan Webb, Ryan Hall, and Dathan Ritzenhein all graduated the same year of high school. Were all three quite good..

It has been 11 years since they graduated high school.

Ryan Hall: Half Marathon Record 2x Olympic qualifier

Alan Webb: USA Mile Record Holder 2x Olympic qualifier

Dathan Ritzenhein: Former 5k record holder 3x Olympic qualifier

Out of that 2001 graduating class how would you rank their post college careers from best to worst?

Make that:

Alan Webb: USA Mile Record Holder 2x Olympic qualifier

You changed nothing.

trillex wrote:

I'm going to say Ritz, Hall then Webb

1. Ritz on account of:

-- Top placings at Global championships

3rd at World Junior XC

9th at 2008 olympic marathon (just in front of Hall)

6th at 2009 World Champs 10k

3rd at 2009 World Champs Half Marathon

--12:56 American record.

2. Hall in second for:

--Consistent excellent finished in major marathons

2007 London - 7th, 2008 London - 5th, 2008 OG - 10th, 2009 Boston - 3rd, 2009 NYC - 4th, 2010 Boston - 4th, 2011 Boston - 4th, 2011 Chicago - 5th

--59:43 AR Half Marathon

--2:06:17 and 2:04:58

If Hall has a good Olympic Marathon (top 5 or so), I'd consider his career to date better than Ritz's. A high finish at an OG is pretty much all he needs at this point, or a WMM win.

3. Webb

3:46 mile AR

3:30.5 1500

He's too inconsistent on world stage than other 2 and no noteworthy major championship finishes.

Liked this post. Agree that if Hall runs well in the Olys this year he is the #1. Still lots of time for rankings to change.

World x-c medals are notable, but not on the same level as WC Track or Olympic medal. The WC Half Marathon is a third-level competition compared to world cross and/or the Olympics.

douglas burke wrote:

Bin Der Dun Dat wrote:

Great runners, but no WC or Olympic medals from any of them, nor the likelyhood of ever getting one.

Webb, by far, had the most potential.

Because none of them never hit the podium, like Saladbar, they can never be considered one of the all time US greats.

salazar has a world xc silver and ritz has a world junior xc branze and as mentioned a world half marathon bronze.

Ritz > Hall > Webb

This is such a tough and subjective question that I was going to stay away from it and just read, but I can't resist jumping in. I'm making a lot of assumptions in my answer, namely I assume we are talking about 'everything' they accomplished as a runner.

Rank: Webb/Ritz/Hall

Why Webb?

1. Webb by a large margin broke one of the most entrenched H.S. records. He did this while having a normal H.S. career in terms of running XC, indoor and outdoor, running relays and frequently doubling and tripling at meets. Webb was also the anchor leg on the DMR HSR.

2. Webb finished a season ranked #1 in the world in one event and #2 in another event.

3. Webb has won 4 national championships.

4. In addition to owning the AR in the mile, he is also on the top-10 list in 800, 3k, 2-mile and just outside of the top-10 in the 5k.

5. According to scoring tables Webb's mile performance ranks higher than any of Ritz or Hall's performances.

6. Just looking at the numbers (not victories), the combination of Webb's performances in 800/1500/5000 would probably put him the top-10 greatest MD/LD runners in the world.

7. Neither of the 3 have had great consistency in their pro career, but when Webb was at the top of his game, he was spectactular.

-----------------

Ritz is second becasue he has beaten Hall in all but one of their head to head match ups. The marathon is just one event, Ritz is accomplished in 5 events. If you could adjust for the course and conditions, Ritz would probably have a faster HM PR than Hall. Medaling in Jr XC and the world HM probably does not register with a lot of people, but people who really know the sports, know that those a really big deals.

With all of that said, I can easily see how people would rank them differently...which I could possibily do myself on a different day, for right now I am pretty solid on Webb.

I'm really kind of shocked everybody is not choosing Webb. To me he is a slam dunk number 1. At least right now. And I'm not even a Webb fan. Maybe over the coming years Hall and Ritz can build on their overall record and catch Webb. But until then Webb is clearly superior based on the sheer range of running ability from 800M-10,000M.

In other words what you said was that none of the them could beat the others at their best events. This is neither novel nor interesting. It verges on a tautology.

jjjjjjj wrote:

One way of thinking about it is who would beat whom at his best.

Ritz would beat Webb in a non-championship race at every distance above 2M or maybe even above the mile.

Really? Guess you weren't alive on April 30, 2006. Webb beat Ritz in a 10,000.

1 Alan Webb Nike 27:34.72

2 Dathan Ritzenhein Nike 27:35.65

Sagarin wrote:

Ritz was also the only winner of an NCAA cross championship I believe off of an abbreviated base.

Good point on the xc title but then it needs to be pointed out that Hall is the only one with an NCAA track title.

PS. As for the xc title, I don't give it extra points for being done with an abbreviated base.

As for Teg, you answered the question yourself.

Equinox2100 wrote:

He's quiet, but has been equally if not more impressive than Ritz/Webb/Hall at various times. The only reason (Teg) is not in the discussion is that he was a step off in HS, and has not won a significant national race except USA indoor 3k once, which doesn't mean a whole lot.

Can you make a serious argument saying that his pro career is any less illustrious on big stages? His 'downfall' is that he just doesn't race that often. I submit that he could be considered equally as good/better than the 'big 3' of his class using the common metrics.

You need to be able to dominate your event in the US. Teg hsn't done that (although you are wrong about his USA titles - he won the 5k outdoors in 2009).

Plus he never won an NCAA title.

Ritz has never won a US track title. If xc was what it was back in the day, it would be way easier to rank him higher as he's won 3 USA xc titles - but I'd have to go back and look and see who he beat in those races.

Again, this is a great thread.

Goodness, this is really hard.

I ask myself which of them would I really, really expect to win a good race in his best condition, and so it has to be...

...Webb, Hall, Ritz

Webb beat Lagat twice in 2007 and won the big one in Paris.

Hall, well I wait for him to magically make it every marathon, but to date he just could not do it.

Ritz, I'm a great fan of him, and really based on performance in international championships he tops the other two.

National champs Ritz has three, Hall and Webb have two (or have three as well if you count winning a Olympic trial race).

Based on who is most easiest to follow because of racing, it has to be

Hall, Ritz, Webb (although in 2007...)

and the last one:

tables have them as Hall, Webb, Ritz

Hall, Webb, Ritz but I agree their careers have all included huge races, big time American distance performances without any significant medals or wins. I pick Hall because I think his career will last longer at a high level.

1. Hall

2. Ritz

3. Webb

Although Hall has made one less Olympic team than Ritz, overall I think he has done better internationally given the depth in the marathon right now. Oddly, my rankings would have been opposite if this were asked in 2001.

I'm changing my criteria to whenever the last time all three were in the same race. Was that footlocker?

Ritz

Webb

Hall