14 Weeks to get a Sub-17 5K...help me.

How have you been handling the heat? It's been a confounding variable to me. I did a 5k in 95 degrees and windy conditions in early July in 18:45. My tempos at the time were 3 miles at 6:35 pace.

The name of the game at the beginning of this thread was 4 mile tempos at 6:10 pace, and this was in early June. That culminated with a 37:59 10k. I am concerned that my fitness has fleeted due to the heat and not being able to get the same turnover in my tempo runs as they've been about 6:35 pace for 3/4 the distance for the last 7 weeks.

I did a 3 mile time trial on Sunday in 17:45 with splits of 6:01, 5:57, 5:47, in about 85% humidity at 85 degrees. The heat turned off hear in St. Louis, and I'm running a 5k tomorrow evening. I guess we'll see how much the heat was influencing my workouts.

I'm predicting a pr from 18:10 to 17:45 for myself this weekend.

bangalangadanga wrote:

How have you been handling the heat? It's been a confounding variable to me.

I can honestly say that every tempo I've done has been in high heat/humidity. I cannot/prefer not do tempos early before work because my body doesn't really wake up until 9am when I've sitting at work...so I've suffered through afternoon heat for each workout.

My longest tempo to date was that 10K on no taper, clocking in at 38:22/6:10 pace...but I did run 6:11's solo for 4 miles prior that. The worst pace has been 6:28 (suffering a nasty side stitch).

For reference...this appears sort of accurate:

Funny, I ran 18:10 tonight. I'm pretty happy with this as I ran 18:10 back in 2006. So, equaling a super old pr is like pr'ing to me.

Splits of 5:36, 5:58, 5:58.

I won overall by about 2 minutes. I'm running a 5k next weekend that draws a strong field, and the weahter is supposed to be even nicer. I'm expecting to crush 18:00. Ultimate goal is still to run 16:40 as the weather cools and my tempos go from 3 miles to 10 milers.

Buddy, how old are you? If 16 or under, just through physical maturation, if you follow any reasonable training regiment and avoid injury you will stand a good chance of dropping from 17:35 to 17 minutes over 14 weeks. Don't worry about the training details other than not over-training, but do try to acquire an inner Prefontaine.

I thought that this post was from a high school girl, then did a double take at the name. Seriously, 6x800 in 2:42 is not a legitimate workout. Quit screwing aroud and starting today run 12 miles everyday as close to 6:30 pace as you can get, and put some surges in there too, hammering up every hill. 12 weeks of this and you will be closer to 15 than 17. Quit messing about, now!

nevermind the troll

Not enough wrote:

I thought that this post was from a high school girl, then did a double take at the name. Seriously, 6x800 in 2:42 is not a legitimate workout. Quit screwing aroud and starting today run 12 miles everyday as close to 6:30 pace as you can get, and put some surges in there too, hammering up every hill. 12 weeks of this and you will be closer to 15 than 17. Quit messing about, now!

That workout (6x800 w/400 jogs) was done more of a tune up prior to a race.

12 @ 6:30 pace? Explain your reasoning. This is not marathon training. How am I supposed to recover from that type of workout and do the workouts that really matter, like shorter harder tempos and race pace/sub-race pace workouts?

You are not fit enough now to run shorter harder tempos. The long hard runs are what will get you in shape. After a few weeks, you'll get used to pushing hard for an hour or so, and the runs will feel easier and you'll recover faster. You need to build a strong aerobic base before you try a lot of intervals. At the pace you want to race at, sprints are practically useless, but if you can run an hour hard, then your 15 to 17 minute race will seem a lot easier. You need to be in position to use a finishing sprint, and building a strong aerobic base will keep you near the front of most races. It is basic Lydiard type training which has been used for ages by lots of top runners including gold medalists and world record holders. It is not complicated, spend a few months building a base then ease off and sharpen up for your important races. Forget all the fancy schedules and keep it simple. The guys at the front of the pack aren't hurting any more than the last placers, and the reason is because they are in good shape.

I am obvioulsy late in asnwering your question, but if you're already nursing a tender calf, what's the logic in running back 2 back hard days? Stop, rest and evaluate from there.

You are wise to back off the mileage. Less is almost always better in this situation and from the looks of the work you've been putting in, you are an athlete who needs to be cautioned re: over-training as opposed to the type who does not train enough. It sounds like you are making good progress. When are you racing the 5k and shattering 17:00?

Finally, re: the discussion of long runs @ 6:30 pace. Forget about the time and listen to your body. If 6:30 pace feels within yourself (and I'm guessing it won't) but still honest, fine. But if it happens to be 7:00 or 7:30 (as you mentioned you are now doing them), that's fine too. For me (a sub 17:00 master) some rare days I can run a flat 12 miler @ 6:30 pace and still feel ok. Other days, I'm barfing up a lung just trying to run 7:30s. Fixating on time as opposed to how you feel can be dangerous, especially in the summer heat,

Although I disagree with the idea that you need to be hammering long runs @ 85-90% efforts all the time, I do believe that running an occasional (once every 3 or 4 weeks) long run @ medium/hard effort will help your training. You just need to make sure you give yourself plenty of recovery before your next hard workout. I also see no problem with your long run being even longer (2 hours) so long as you are healthy and you adjust pace accordingly. My 2 cents to take or leave and best of luck.

Thanks for the responses. I have been able to hit 6:50 pace on a couple 15-16 mile runs with great ease earlier when the temperatures were better...and I have kept a 6:30 pace during a couple of those mid week 6-8 mile runs because I was feeling good.

My calf is fine now.

The race I want to hit sub-17 at is a little over a month from now.

I actually jumped into a low key 8K at the end of mile 70 mile week yesterday. I did this race after doing a speed workout on Friday and basically tempo'd the thing at 5:58 pace. The only people who beat me were several sub-3 marathoners - I looked them up after the race results were posted - so I think I'm doing something right.

I also think I've done a good amount of tempo work this summer and I can count maybe 5-6 tempo runs I've done since 2010.

sounds like your good to go. keep rocking those 6 minute 5 mile tempos a couple of times per week, and you'll be strong enough to tackle that 17:00.

I've heard about 2 x 2500 meter reps at goal 5k pace with complete recovery is a good workout. Maybe you should give that one a try in a couple of weeks? Just throwin' stuff out there.

Nice 8k. That had to give you some confidence. This board is a good study on the efficacy (or lack thereof) of tempos as well. I sometimes wonder if I place too much emphasis on them in my own training.

Sounds like the hay is pretty much in the barn at this point. A little bit of sharpening/faster turnover and then a good, smart taper and you will be right in the mix.

BR,

Would you mind telling us which race you're tuning up for?

-H

Don't know if anyone is still following this...but I made a promise to follow up on my mediocre running goals.

60 miles the week of 8/13-8/19. Flopped a 3x1600, 3x400 workout at the end of that week. Went 5:31, 5:37, 5:44 with

90 second standing rests, and was about 1:14-1:17 for each 400. Very depressing.

72 miles the week of 8/20. Did a 3 x 7:00 (threshold to 5K)

paced workout on the road with 2:30 min. steady/easy recovery. That Sunday, did a solid workout of 2x1600, 2x1200, 2x800 on a marked grass loop - all with 2:00 jog recoveries. Feeling much stronger! Did not take splits...just ran them hard.

This week I did 10x400 on a paved loop - chasing after two sub-16 guys who beat the sh_t out of me on every rep by 4 to 7 seconds.

6-7 x 1000 on tap for Sunday. This will be a lower mileage week and I'm tempted to throw in a 4-5 mile tempo in as well.

My long runs have topped out at 12 miles. Running lots of doubles to fit it in.

You are absolutely right. the guy has natural speed we can tell by his mile pr and his 200s reps but this means nothing as the 5k is an endurance event. He says he hates tempos/steady state runs but this is where he is weak and will benefit most. I am a similar runner to him with a pr of 17.18 and I know that this is what I need to work on. I do 2 types of tempo. 1. is a high end tempo 2-5 miles @ 6.00 pace increasing distance every week(i am up to 17 mins after week 4) and a steady state lydiard 3/4 effort at 6.25 pace (started at 4 miles am now up to 7 after week 4) They are really tough but I know that is where I am weak. Working on speed work would be useless as you said not enough. I have done it before and fell short . I do however do mile reps once a week off 2 mins and they are a good indicator of when you are ready. When I am up to 13 miles at 6.30 ish pace and 5 miles at 6.00 pace and hitting mile reps at 5.25 pace I know i will be ready.

good luck , I hope you succeed.

Probably hills and tempos and don't do hard days back to back. Doing 800s the day before a tempo won't allow your body to recover enough to push it for the tempo.You are risking injury & overtraining as well.

You are probably running too hard on your easy days.

You will for sure go sub 17 with your current volume and speed, just be patient and let yourself recover between hard days.

I think I am slower than you over short distances but I have gone sub 17 a few times this year off of marathon training. The tempos will make you mentally tough and get you there.

bump -- how did this go for you, buddy?

bangalangadanga wrote:

bump -- how did this go for you, buddy?

Sorry. I decided not to do it. I haven't done enough race specific stuff yet to feel confident. The race will now be on Sunday, October 7. I'm going to attempt 10x600 tomorrow (1:00 min jog) around 2:00 flat.

Last week went like this:

Monday: 8m (59:12 / 7:24 pace)

Tuesday: 7x1000 w/400m jogs (3:25, 3:30, 3:30, 3:29, 3:33, 3:31, 3:26)...felt very controlled.

Wednesday: 6.71m (45:00 / 6:42 pace)

Thursday: OFF

Friday: 10m (1:09:15 / 6:55 pace)

Saturday: Rolling Hill Intervals (4x1075 in 3:42, 3:43, 3:49, 3:45) / (Total time 14:59 / 5:36 pace) - 60 second jog rests. Followed by 10 x 250m Hard Hills (250m jog rest)

Sunday: Long Run - 13.4m (1:37:42 / 7:17 pace)

TOTAL: 56 miles