Will the class of '08 graduate without any NCAA D1 champions in the true distance events?

"You say lots of people do it, so name one." I already did like Kyle Perry and Justin Tyner to name a few of many. Apparently you don't read well or forget quickly.

I asked "When was the last time a steeple champ was top two in a flat event?" You couldn't name one. You silence condemns you.

"When was the last time a 100HH was a top 100 meter guy?" Maybe the hurdles are the soft event for the sprinters, but I make no claim at knowing anything about the 110 Hurdles and apparently you don't either as you got the distance wrong.

"When was the last time a miler was a top 100 meter guy?" That is over 16X's longer. That is apples and oranges. You point?

"BTW- your 3k time "would be" top ten. Which means it's not." How can you say that? You don't know my PR's. How stupid are you?

"But you have excuses. there's a shock. Face it guys, some of us are better athletes and we prove it by doing things like decathlon, hurdles etc." I agree some decathletes are amazing athletes and so are some steeplers. Never said they weren't.

"Steeplers, the good ones, not the crossovers like you who switch to score 3 points in their conference meet, are better overall athletes than flat runners." How are they better athletes? Your stupidity continues to shine. I never switched over in conference but scored 22 pts. outdoor in my D1 outdoor conference (it is a small conference but point is the same).

In conclusion you are either stupid or a troll. Sucks to be you.

One problem withe steeple is that it is just kind of gimmicky and not different enough from the 3000/3200m.

They need more barriers or more water pits or higher hurdles or something. Maybe find somewhere to put some flames.

Medal Detector wrote:

Great, switch over and make the team in 2012 if it's so easy. You say lots of people do it, so name one.

Here's the whole quote. Name a seasoned flat runner who has switched to the steeple and made the Olympic team. I can tell you are losing your argument by the fact that you quoted a portion of my quote. Good job.

Like I said before. The Olympics is a big deal. If the steeple is so weak, I'm sure lots of guys will switch to the steeple this year and dominate at the trials. Or it won't happen because you guys are full of shiit.

I didn't realize Klement and Taylor were Olympic medalists in individual events at the flat distances. Can you provide the links that say which Olympics they won medals in the flat individual races? Thanks.

Medal Detector wrote:

Like I said before. The Olympics is a big deal. If the steeple is so weak, I'm sure lots of guys will switch to the steeple this year and dominate at the trials. Or it won't happen because you guys are full of shiit.

Ok here's one of the problems. Few guys at the Olympic level are the type that would cherry pick their way to the Olympics. They are competitors and want to beat the best people and the event that they chose. That's why you won't see Chris Derrick running the steeple at NCAA outdoor nationals. They SEEK the best competition, not SHY away from it just for the sake of getting a medal.

Also, steeple does not require any more athleticism than a regular 3000m does. The pace is too slow. Unlike the 100m hurdles where a different dimension of athleticism (dynamic agility) is added.

Intrigued wrote:

Ok here's one of the problems. Few guys at the Olympic level are the type that would cherry pick their way to the Olympics. They are competitors and want to beat the best people and the event that they chose. That's why you won't see Chris Derrick running the steeple at NCAA outdoor nationals. They SEEK the best competition, not SHY away from it just for the sake of getting a medal.

Also, steeple does not require any more athleticism than a regular 3000m does. The pace is too slow. Unlike the 100m hurdles where a different dimension of athleticism (dynamic agility) is added.

Thanks for the examples of circular reasoning and rationalization. If I kept this going long enough I bet I could get you to singlehandedly provide my logic class with an example of every fallacy.

But since you just opened the door. Since at the Olympic level, people don't cherry pick their way to the Olympics, as you say, then the guys in the steeple at the trials, some of whom will be NCAA athletes, aren't cherrypickers. Therefore, the steeple is just as legit as any other event. Thank you for agreeing with me.

You teach logic? Yet, you were comparing the 100 to the mile like it was the same as the steeple to a 3k/5k? Do you do this at a community college for the mentally challenged?

I wasn't agreeing with you. You asked why wouldn't people switch the steeple just so they could make it to the Olympics. Or something close to that. And I said that "few" would, not "none" would. And that is true. There are fewer legitimate hopefuls in the steeple than there are in the 5000/10000/1500. So I'm right, you're wrong.

And you know darn well that the steeple is the USAs least competitive event domestically and internationally. Convince me otherwise. I'm sure I'm right and you're wrong here again.

Logic principles state that the replication of an argument regardless of terms will always be true. The argument originally made was that since representatives of one event were not represented at a high level in another event, then the first event must be "weak." For this conclusion to be true, the same conclusion must be true for all arguments presented with the same premises. In real logic, you actually learn how to discern valid/invalid arguments with false premises for this precise reason. Deductive logic doesn't allow for accessory premises such as (those two events are more different than these two events - judgement call). The point to that was not to try to prove all milers are frustrated 100 meter runners - of course that's stupid. Problem is the argument used to say the steeple is weak is structurally exactly the same. Therefore the conclusion is equally stupid. And BTW- you know I'm not your logic teacher so obviously I'm not the guy who teaches at the CC for mentally challenged. Good luck while you're there though. i hop you get into a four year at some point.

chunker wrote:

sc runner wrote:

It certainly didn't help that German Fernandez has been a flop.

Except Fernandez has already won an NCAA title. What am I missing about the point of your post?

Agree. Fernandez was 1500 meter champ his freshmen year right (2009)? And if I'm not mistaken, all-american in cross in 2010 and 2011. Sure, he's not setting the track on fire lately, but the entire group of upper classmen he trounced to win the 1500 in 09, as well as all the D1 runners he has bested in cross would likely disagree with you calling his collegiate career a "flop."

Don't mean any disrespect, but have or do you run @ the D1 level? It is so f'ng hard. Completely diffrent ball game than high school, even if you are a super-star like Fenandez. The list of names who dominated in HS and were not able to do the same in college is long.

I run Mile/3k and tried the steeple once and it was pretty horrible. It was grueling and was WAY slower than my 3k time. I'm not a natural jumper though. A guy on our team is really good at jumping and his steeple time was only 25 seconds slower than his 3k time last season (8:49 3k steeple / 8:24 3k). He does steeple because he is good at it not because there is less competition. I agree that it is less competitive but I think it is harder than people think and that not just anyone can switch to it and achieve success.

You have got to be kidding me. You are unwilling to admit that the 100:mile::steeplechase:5000 is a ludicrous proposition? If you consider those to be the "same premises" then you are a fool.

Further, you make a point of intentionally narrowing the argument to an unwinnable proposition. You are intellectually dishonest.

Angelo Taylor has a 4x400 gold in the Olympics. If the hurdles are fundamentally different from the 400, as you claim, he should not be able to make a 4x400 team, right?

He has a WC medal in the flat 400 as well.

Kerron Clement set the indoor 400m world record. I never claimed either of them had Olympic gold.

The argument is not structurally the same.

You're obviously a huge steeple homer and can't just accept the fact that it is comparatively a weaker event than the 1500-10k flat events.

And by logical reason, just because you're not my logic teacher at my community college does not mean you couldn't be a teacher for the challenged elsewhere. BOOM ROASTED!!!!!!

Hey you guys set the parameters. If they are unwinnable that is your fault. Here is the "ludicrous proposition." The national champion in an NCAA event is only national champion due to a "weak" field. Any argument that supports that proposition will have holes in it that will enable asinine statements using the same parameters you use to defend such a stupid statement. Personally, I would rather try to win NCAAs by jogging around for a bunch of laps and then sprinting than be forced to run an honest pace like the steeplers do. If any NCAA championship events are weak, it's the ones that wouldn't drop the top high school kids by half way.

Wendell Gee wrote:

You have got to be kidding me. You are unwilling to admit that the 100:mile::steeplechase:5000 is a ludicrous proposition? If you consider those to be the "same premises" then you are a fool.

Further, you make a point of intentionally narrowing the argument to an unwinnable proposition. You are intellectually dishonest.

Angelo Taylor has a 4x400 gold in the Olympics. If the hurdles are fundamentally different from the 400, as you claim, he should not be able to make a 4x400 team, right?

He has a WC medal in the flat 400 as well.

Kerron Clement set the indoor 400m world record. I never claimed either of them had Olympic gold.

Dear Metal mouth (should actually change that to foul mouth)... You didn't respond to one of my points...because you can't...I know it sucks to admit your event isn't nearly as competitive but that is the fact and everyone knows it. Most guys that switch over do so at the college level, probably why you don't get more pros doing it.

I hope you can learn how to spell hope...you really must be mentally challenged. Final conclusion...worthless troll.

Steeple people wrote:

Dear Metal mouth (should actually change that to foul mouth)... You didn't respond to one of my points...because you can't...I know it sucks to admit your event isn't nearly as competitive but that is the fact and everyone knows it. Most guys that switch over do so at the college level, probably why you don't get more pros doing it.

I hope you can learn how to spell hope...you really must be mentally challenged. Final conclusion...worthless troll.

I always know I've won an argument when the other guy loses his mind and starts with the random insult rant. Thanks. See you in Eugene. Oh wait, no I won't.

Medal Detector wrote:

I always know I've won an argument when the other guy loses his mind and starts with the random insult rant.

Your first post on this thread included an insult. Apparently you lost before the argument started.

Also, please remind me which HS athletes have run as fast last year's 5k winner ...

I have to admit I should not be hating on any distance runner or event. I have lots of good friends who do steeple and respect them greatly. Metal guy... I do have to say you are very bad at defending you point. It doesn't help we gang beat you but you look really stupid taking such untenable positions as you did. You couldn't refute any of my points yet I answered almost everyone of yours. Wendell pointed out your stupid hypocrisy so I think I will pass on further mention.

Apparently you won't be in Eugene as anything but a spectator or a coach so who cares.

The point is valid and well acknowledged that steeple just isn't as competitive. Sorry but that is how it is. Lots of college guys switch over to get a national championship or all american status. Hillary Bor is another example.

I hope your students can get a refund...

A Wendell. I'm sorry but you're coming apart at the seams. You only had two points in your last message and you failed miserable on both, poor boy.

1) A single insult after pointing a remarkably poor argument (which was in itself an insult) is different than a "random insult rant.) 0-1

2) If you reread my post, or have it read and explained to you which apparently is necessary, you will see it says couldn't drop the best high schoolers by HALF WAY. Last year they came through 3k in 8:08 (I'll save you the trouble that's 2/3 of a 5k which is more than 1/2, seriously it is, I'll wait here while you go look it up). Ok you back? Unless we need to debate whether 2/3 is more than 1/2, which given your previous arguments I wouldn't be surprised, every year high school runners run 3k,3200 and/or 2 miles in which they pass 3k darn close to that 8:08 or even better. 0-2

Thanks for playing.

Funny thing is I was actually a better flat runner than steepler. I loved the steeple, I ran it a kind of high level but never the level at which I ran 5 or 10k. I know first hand not just anyone can jump into a steeple and be better at it than they are their flat events.

Sorry for hijacking the original post. I just couldn't resist people building up the SC as something amazing and saying a Donn Cabral SC victory (which still hasn't occurred) is a real distance event if German's 1500m gun to tape victory isn't. Also Donn Cabral who is very talented and cool is the least of this all american pack only further exemplifying my point.

Metal man... You remind me of the usual stubborn distance runner who just can't admit he is wrong. I know because we are all that way but you got hung out to dry and won't admit it. You still haven't given me one factual reason of why any of my points are incorrect even after repeated challenges to do so but I can live with that. You can continue to live in your own bubble world. If you can't handle facts that is okay. Thanks for playing...